Level scaling confirmed

[Valorian]

How is this comparable to Athkatla/Underdark? Do you remember the fight with that party with an ogre and imp, or the wizards and liches freed from that vault, in the Underdark? Or the Unseeing Eye quest, or the Celestial Fury encounters, or Kangaxx, in Athkatla. Or anything. They were exactly the same enemies no matter when or in which order you came to the Underdark or what level was your party. They were completely static.

 

When he talks about "scaling" it means that these encounters will not be static and will be, guess what, scaled.

 

No, they weren't the same. BG2 had more enemies if you were higher levels, as well as different ones- sometimes greater mummies instead of mummies, sometimes liches where there were vampires, and so on.

 

The fact that you didn't notice it is because it was well done.

 

Also, it is the same for BG1- except that BG1, having only 7 or so level, four of those being maybe in the first 2 hours of playing, it was much harder to notice.

 

I just mentioned this in an example. Can't you people read?

All named, unique enemies, didn't scale at all. The only things that scaled were 2 f. versions of mummies and vampires, in some areas. And a lich would perhaps be added to a couple of encounters if you were really high leveled. How that makes BG2 a level scaled game?

[Madzookeeper]

maybe because it's scaling the encounter based on your level? because... you know... changing things is scaling?

 

also, could you possibly be any more condescending/i know more than thou? i mean jeez.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Madzookeeper

[Gorth]

Time to lay off the personal insults or this thread joins the romance threads... just a friendly hint.

[cuteLittleRabbit]

This topic could have been a discussion of what we, as a community, think would be a good way to implement level scaling, and which implementation of level scaling would be a very bad idea.

 

Sadly, it is a rant.

 

I'm not a moderator (nor do I intend to be one), but I feel the personal attacks in this thread have derailed what could have been an interesting discussion into this rant.

 

Can you peepz please tone it down a bit? Thanks, much appreciated .

[Valorian]

And then, once that order has been established BY THE PLAYER, the encounters are scaled and then FIXED; that means that after the initial scaling, there will be NO more scaling and the difficulty will be fixed. So if you come back to the easy town after playing through the hard one, it will still be easy; it won't scale anymore because it's been FIXED.

 

The Were-otter Shaman king, Huggy Owlbear the Goblin Pimp, and Missus Featherbottom the evil nanny, the bosses of the respective areas, as well as some of their lieutenants scale to your level +1.

 

 

 

They're scaled but they're fixed.

They're fixed but they're scaled to your level +1.

Oh, it's ok, because once you enter an area and once they're scaled... they're fixed ever after.. forevah..

 

I'm starting to see I'm discussing with mentally challenged people. Yes mods, maybe this is not the forum or the game for me.

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

I'd be inclined not to see level scaling. Scaling via some mob replacement and adding a more tougher monster type or two... but not artificial increase of power of the same goons...

 

which is pretty much exactly what they're doing. they aren't going to make rats uber or anything like that. i mean seriously, THINK people, don't just react!

 

Come on, the quote is right here in this thread, it doesn't say either of these options are what they're doing. No need to panic about Bethesda silliness, but also lets try not to apologize for Obsidian by making things up.

 

 

given that i was there for that back and forth in the comments i think i'm probably better informed than the person in the OP? possibly? that was a concern that was addressed. they aren't doing that. pretty much everyone in the comments who had been worried about level scaling was pretty much put at ease about it. and there was a fairly differing opinion on the subject overall.

 

and there have been plenty of people acting like the sky is falling and it's going to be oblivion kinda level scaling. it's just insane to think that.

 

Then don't shout at people to "THINK", quote the relevant parts here so people have the information they need to form valid opinions. At least say how you know that's pretty much exactly what they're doing.

 

part of it can be seen by just reading the comment. they aren't doing oblivion level scaling. that is basic reading comprehension.

 

the rest of it is buried about 600+ comments ago. not really up to digging it up.

 

regardless, i'm done in here. i'm just going to get angry and start yelling at people. and that won't help anything.

 

Well that's problematic for me because your first sentence is untrue, I have trouble believing the rest of your post.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[Piccolo]

Very subtle level-scaling isn't necessarily bad... as long as it doesn't feel like the whole gameworld is revolving around you.

[Baudolino05]

You know, what? I was thinking exactly the same

 

1- I just told about encounter scaling, not enemy level scaling.

2- Do you really think you are the only one accustomed to mod tools ?

3- Scaling is automatically made through a simple script based on the party experience. Nothing that you can change via encounter design

4- Try to solo-play BG or BG2 and than came back to tell me if I'm wrong or right

 

I should ignore half of these idiotic comments made in an apologetic frenzy, but since they're addressing my posts... yeah, I can't resist to slap them down.

 

1. The topic is about level scaling. So what kind of encounter scaling are you talking about?

2. You don't seem to be able to use mod tools.

3. Still no level scaling, right? So you're saying BG had scaling because (MAYBE) a few more gibberling appeared based on your level? Doesn't matter if all named enemies and everything else was the same regardless of your party XP, right?

4. I tried. Don't see your point.

 

1-The one you had in the EI games .

2- You don't get the difference between level scaling and encounter scaling and I'm the one who doesn't seem able to use mod tools? Yes, why not?

3- The point is that Obsidian can easily arrange the difficulty of SOME encounters simply changing the whole enemy party level instead of the single mob level. Probably this is exactly what they gonna do considering IE games worked in the same way.

4- Yes, and did you always find the same encounters in a normal game, right ?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Baudolino05

[dlux]

Scaling then fixing encounters does not sound much different than what was done in Oblivion. The only difference is that in Oblivion the enemies kept on scaling, in PE they will not level up any further. At least that is the way it sounds (to me). It is hard to say how excatly Obsidian is planning on implementing level scaling.

 

It needs clarification and an official statement. Until then I will stay calm. It was probably just an unfortunate choice of words, I really don't think that Obsidian is going to basically tell all of the fans of the IE engine games to go F themselves.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree, stop bantering, and there is no reason to panic here. Obsidian's level scaling is probably cleverly planned and limited in use. Nonetheless, this thread is important, because the pace and difficulty of our characters' levelling in PE will affect the quality and fun of the game in countless ways.

 

I know there are plenty of players who love to see fast steady progress and a stream of easy-interface adventuring and flowing combat.

Unfortunately, this has led to ever more streamlined arcade/console machine gaming experiences. If that goes to the extreme, it is tempting to claim that Diablo 3, Torchlight and other action RPGs of that kind are like fast food. The burgers and fries are made and served quickly and systematically, and we can eat them messily and merrily, and throw the wrappings and plastic stuff away in some bin and just run off to our next project. There is no use denying, it is quick and fun. But they make for horrible RPGs - someone here on the forums called it hitting piñata-games, it is all about clickfest, fast reflexes, loot, loot, gold, gold and then some more loot and gold. These games have one mode: the whole enchilada, and the entire engine just keeps on throwing more calories at you. It's "Just another waferthin mint" every second. Gag-reflex warning soon ensues.

 

So, I'd like to shine a light for CRPG slow food at times, but more importantly, for fancy three-meal courses where game pace, difficulty and immersion makes for wonderful experiences. One key element I think is varying the pace and cut up the streamlining. I want to be surprised, I want to open the wrong door and have a narrow escape from death's clutches. Too much scaling destroys any sense of true adventuring, where coming round the next corner is always a risk worth taking. Never undertestimate a white little fluffy bunny at a cave with huge, recently gnawed bones lying around.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Apex of the Obsidian Order

[Madzookeeper]

 

I'd be inclined not to see level scaling. Scaling via some mob replacement and adding a more tougher monster type or two... but not artificial increase of power of the same goons...

 

which is pretty much exactly what they're doing. they aren't going to make rats uber or anything like that. i mean seriously, THINK people, don't just react!

 

Come on, the quote is right here in this thread, it doesn't say either of these options are what they're doing. No need to panic about Bethesda silliness, but also lets try not to apologize for Obsidian by making things up.

 

 

given that i was there for that back and forth in the comments i think i'm probably better informed than the person in the OP? possibly? that was a concern that was addressed. they aren't doing that. pretty much everyone in the comments who had been worried about level scaling was pretty much put at ease about it. and there was a fairly differing opinion on the subject overall.

 

and there have been plenty of people acting like the sky is falling and it's going to be oblivion kinda level scaling. it's just insane to think that.

 

Then don't shout at people to "THINK", quote the relevant parts here so people have the information they need to form valid opinions. At least say how you know that's pretty much exactly what they're doing.

 

part of it can be seen by just reading the comment. they aren't doing oblivion level scaling. that is basic reading comprehension.

 

the rest of it is buried about 600+ comments ago. not really up to digging it up.

 

regardless, i'm done in here. i'm just going to get angry and start yelling at people. and that won't help anything.

 

Well that's problematic for me because your first sentence is untrue, I have trouble believing the rest of your post.

 

no, it's not untrue. oblivion level scaling is where everything keeps going up with you in level. feargus SPECIFICALLY said that it was going to be fixed once you enter the area that level scaling is implemented in. that is fact, based on what is written there.

 

as to the other, he also said that they were only using SOME level scaling. this would seriously imply that it is only being used in parts of the game, or in certain locations, or maybe even with certain enemies. it is not being used in the entirety of the game, but as an augmentation. again, this is fact based on what is written in the quote.

 

so where is what i'm saying untrue?

[Valorian]

maybe because it's scaling the encounter based on your level? because... you know... changing things is scaling?

 

also, could you possibly be any more condescending/i know more than thou? i mean jeez.

 

So BG2 is a level scaled games even though 95% of encounters didn't scale? Ok. ... It's not "some scaled", "some were fixed". It's 95% vs 5%. And even then it's not level scaling in the sense that a creature with the same name would just increase in levels, as explained.

 

Yes, I could, but I'm restraining myself from telling some of you what I really think.

 

 

1-The one you had in the EI games .

2- You don't get the difference between level scaling and encounter scaling and I'm the one who doesn't seem able to use mod tools? Yes, why not?

3- The point is that Obsidian can easily arrange the difficulty of SOME encounters simply changing the whole enemy party level instead of the single mob level. Probably this is exactly what they gonna do considering IE games worked in the same way.

4- Yes, and did you always find the same encounters in a normal game, right ?

 

1. You stil haven't pointed out a single example.

2. I don't get the difference between the two? How is that so when I'm stressing the difference all the time? There are different types of encounter scaling, and that's what you don't get.

3. Hahaha. Gets even more stupid. That's NOT how it worked in IE games, at all. And that *is* level scaling.

4. There weren't any relevant changes. I don't find the appearence of a couple more gibberlings every 50 encounters relevant.

[Madzookeeper]

what you said about BG being 95% static is a perfect example of "some" scaling. which i do believe is the word that feargus used in the quote wasn't it?

 

and a mod did come in and say something about personal comments. pretty sure that means for all of us.

[Darkpriest]

TBH... I'd rather see the system where you have mixed difficulty levels based on localizations.. I do not see a reason why one hub would suddenly have thieves with better weapons and HP than others...

 

I'd rather have a system where hubs are fairly similar, but different quest areas have different monster types, traps, etc. I would rather avoid a situation where you travel to a one of 3-4 main hubs, do all the quests there and you are never interested in going back there. This was what KotOR had. I'd rather see it more Fallout and BG style. No scaling whatsoever, but a smart placing of NPCs and quest distribution. If you suddenly hit a wall, because quests or some areas become too tough... well then go visit another hub and check for some quests there.

 

The idea of 3 places which you chose to go and scaling of NPCs appears, suggests that we could see another clone of (gather 3 pieces/allies/whatever in order to win) I'd rather see that a plot would force you to travel multiple times between different localizations and would always be progressive. (Perhaps someone lied to you somewhere, perhaps what you picked up was only a part of a puzzle and the place in which you've found it, has some more information hidden from the most - like via some special device, spell /whatever - - unlocking more dangerous areas)

[Baudolino05]

Scaling then fixing encounters does not sound much different than what was done in Oblivion. The only difference is that in Oblivion the enemies kept on scaling, in PE they will not level up any further. At least that is the way it sounds (to me). It is hard to say how excatly Obsidian is planning on implementing level scaling.

 

From a designer standpoint the result is the same, but frankly I would prefer to fight against 2 orcs instead of one insanely strong.

It needs clarification and an official statement. Until then I will stay calm. It was probably just an unfortunate choice of words, I really don't think that Obsidian is going to basically tell all of the fans of the IE engine games to go F themselves.

 

You are right. As I said I'm not a fan of level scaling, but I could accept this abomination in some particular cases. So, I wanna more info too...

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

I'd be inclined not to see level scaling. Scaling via some mob replacement and adding a more tougher monster type or two... but not artificial increase of power of the same goons...

 

which is pretty much exactly what they're doing. they aren't going to make rats uber or anything like that. i mean seriously, THINK people, don't just react!

 

Come on, the quote is right here in this thread, it doesn't say either of these options are what they're doing. No need to panic about Bethesda silliness, but also lets try not to apologize for Obsidian by making things up.

 

 

given that i was there for that back and forth in the comments i think i'm probably better informed than the person in the OP? possibly? that was a concern that was addressed. they aren't doing that. pretty much everyone in the comments who had been worried about level scaling was pretty much put at ease about it. and there was a fairly differing opinion on the subject overall.

 

and there have been plenty of people acting like the sky is falling and it's going to be oblivion kinda level scaling. it's just insane to think that.

 

Then don't shout at people to "THINK", quote the relevant parts here so people have the information they need to form valid opinions. At least say how you know that's pretty much exactly what they're doing.

part of it can be seen by just reading the comment. they aren't doing oblivion level scaling. that is basic reading comprehension.

 

the rest of it is buried about 600+ comments ago. not really up to digging it up.

 

regardless, i'm done in here. i'm just going to get angry and start yelling at people. and that won't help anything.

 

Well that's problematic for me because your first sentence is untrue, I have trouble believing the rest of your post.

 

 

 

no, it's not untrue. oblivion level scaling is where everything keeps going up with you in level. feargus SPECIFICALLY said that it was going to be fixed once you enter the area that level scaling is implemented in. that is fact, based on what is written there.

 

as to the other, he also said that they were only using SOME level scaling. this would seriously imply that it is only being used in parts of the game, or in certain locations, or maybe even with certain enemies. it is not being used in the entirety of the game, but as an augmentation. again, this is fact based on what is written in the quote.

 

so where is what i'm saying untrue?

 

Hold your horses there, what was that about basic reading comprehension? You wrote they were pretty much exactly doing mob replacement. I asked you for some quotes after you said you heard that from Obsidian comments. You wrote it comes from the quote already posted, and that's untrue. Now you're just side stepping this with stuff that's not even relevant to my replies to you.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[Madzookeeper]

 

I'd be inclined not to see level scaling. Scaling via some mob replacement and adding a more tougher monster type or two... but not artificial increase of power of the same goons...

 

which is pretty much exactly what they're doing. they aren't going to make rats uber or anything like that. i mean seriously, THINK people, don't just react!

 

Come on, the quote is right here in this thread, it doesn't say either of these options are what they're doing. No need to panic about Bethesda silliness, but also lets try not to apologize for Obsidian by making things up.

 

 

given that i was there for that back and forth in the comments i think i'm probably better informed than the person in the OP? possibly? that was a concern that was addressed. they aren't doing that. pretty much everyone in the comments who had been worried about level scaling was pretty much put at ease about it. and there was a fairly differing opinion on the subject overall.

 

and there have been plenty of people acting like the sky is falling and it's going to be oblivion kinda level scaling. it's just insane to think that.

 

Then don't shout at people to "THINK", quote the relevant parts here so people have the information they need to form valid opinions. At least say how you know that's pretty much exactly what they're doing.

part of it can be seen by just reading the comment. they aren't doing oblivion level scaling. that is basic reading comprehension.

 

the rest of it is buried about 600+ comments ago. not really up to digging it up.

 

regardless, i'm done in here. i'm just going to get angry and start yelling at people. and that won't help anything.

 

Well that's problematic for me because your first sentence is untrue, I have trouble believing the rest of your post.

 

 

 

no, it's not untrue. oblivion level scaling is where everything keeps going up with you in level. feargus SPECIFICALLY said that it was going to be fixed once you enter the area that level scaling is implemented in. that is fact, based on what is written there.

 

as to the other, he also said that they were only using SOME level scaling. this would seriously imply that it is only being used in parts of the game, or in certain locations, or maybe even with certain enemies. it is not being used in the entirety of the game, but as an augmentation. again, this is fact based on what is written in the quote.

 

so where is what i'm saying untrue?

 

Hold your horses there, what was that about basic reading comprehension? You wrote they were pretty much exactly doing mob replacement. I asked you for some quotes after you said you heard that from Obsidian comments. You wrote it comes from the quote already posted, and that's untrue. Now you're just side stepping this with stuff that's not even relevant to my replies to you.

 

sorry. i think i might be too tired to really answer this ATM since i keep getting it wrong. it's 6AM and my brother kept me up pretty much all night with a problem of his. probably shouldn't have gotten on here in the first place. if this hasn't gotten too insane after i get some sleep i'll try to answer more how you're looking for.

 

again, apologies.

[dlux]

what you said about BG being 95% static is a perfect example of "some" scaling. which i do believe is the word that feargus used in the quote wasn't it?

 

and a mod did come in and say something about personal comments. pretty sure that means for all of us.

The problem is that "some" is a rather vague statement. The Feargusaurus needs to clarify this.

[Valorian]

what you said about BG being 95% static is a perfect example of "some" scaling. which i do believe is the word that feargus used in the quote wasn't it?

 

 

You should keep yourself into that drama-queen topic you opened about people being dramatic.. because you simply can't squeeze that single atom of logic in your head hard enough.

 

"Some are fixed." "Some are scaled." Yep, that's exactly how someone would be describing BG2 and 95% of its non scaled encounters.

 

[Madzookeeper]

what you said about BG being 95% static is a perfect example of "some" scaling. which i do believe is the word that feargus used in the quote wasn't it?

 

 

You should keep yourself into that drama-queen topic you opened about people being dramatic.. because you simply can't squeeze that single atom of logic in your head hard enough.

 

"Some are fixed." "Some are scaled." Yep, that's exactly how someone would be describing BG2 and 95% of its non scaled encounters.

 

 

yea... i can see how utterly pointless this is now, so i'm pretty much dropping it. like i should have done the first time i said i was.

 

and dude, cut the personal attacks. it doesn't make you any smarter looking. just makes you seem like an ***.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Madzookeeper

[Gorth]

Seems like people didn't get the hint and civil discussion is impossible.