Real "Lies"

[perkel]

Ok, that's probably something which isn't mentioned a lot but i think it's interesting idea.

 

Lies or should i say real lies.

 

Meaning i'm tired of NPC being trustworthy. In every single game be it RPG or any other if you meet NPC you will believe what he said it's true. In 99% cases, in last 1% it's clishe plan created by **** which are almost totally predictable by player who can do 2x2.

 

I played recently The Void. It's kinda artsy game but one thing that really was well done, was sence of unknown. Here you are in unknown world and from start you are directed by sisters what is good and what is bad. But later in the game different sisters and brothers see things differently and by point which you will talk with most of them you are confused. You are part of game without knowledge even what side of board is place you are standing, who is ally and who is enemy. Which part is telling true and which is not or both parties just doesn't understand fully the world where they exist ?

 

That struck me big. First time i was playing game i intensively thought about my standing in this world. I'm not alone with this. Here is some Rock, Paper, Shotgun article about this game and this subject.

 

and here is the quote:

 

When you encounter your first Predator a Sister guides you through battering it with colour until it dies, then she congratulates you. COOL! You think. And so you get into the habit of unthinkingly crushing Predators you find with colour. Before long a Brother gives you a reprimand, telling you flinging colour around is taboo. Then the colour itself starts whispering at you, telling you you’re wasting your soul. Then you pick up from a conversation about something else that there’s a relationship between colour spent in an area and the Predators that appear. Suddenly, you’re not sure if killing Predators is a mistake. Suddenly, you’re thinking.

Just as Pathologic was really a story that had the confidence to lie to the player, The Void is a game that has the fearlessness to mislead you, to obfuscate the rules of the world and make you rely on your own intuition and experience. In a year where mass-market games development is trying harder than ever to ensure even the most casual gamer is never confused or lost, I find Ice-Pick’s attitude here much appreciated.

 

Cool, isn't it ? And i as mature player i'm enjoying it. There was unmarked quest in FN:V with guy which his girl was trapped by geckos near Goodsprings campfire. This man lied to you, you killed geckos and he tried to kill you for stash near geckos. He lied and you bought it. It's a shame little of that was used later in game.

 

You should also consider that i'm not saying that every NPC should lie. No that would be unrealistic.

Most of NPC in game should be directed by selfishness mostly but without any zeal about it.

 

I really do love Obsidian writting and design of their worlds and i think that idea could be further enhanced.

 

So what are my ideas ?

 

For example:

 

You remember Jaheira from BG2 ? What if her parting with Harpers was planned and executed so Jaheira would be treated by player as full member of party so she could observe you and when time comes when Bhallspawn will side more to evil she would kill you ?

 

You start in academy, you train to fight another army who is trying to conquer your country. After a few battles with few of your friend died you found that your country is villain here.

 

You were asked to deliver some medicine to one doctor in next village. After delivery you gone to next town. Later in game like 20h your party is defending city from bandits. When first attack was repealed you notice that a lot of villagers die from drinking well water. After investigation you realize that that wasn't medicine but poison and doctor work with bandits and he is currently directing defence of village.

 

We know that already Obsidian does it for some extend like Morte in PST which already had "don't trust anyone" vibe (Avellone writing). But whole concept wasn't fully realized meaning yeah they lied but in a good way meaning no harm to player.

 

What i want to see is that concept fully matured. When people can screw you over and you want revenge not only because developer wants you to do so but simple revenge on NPC for what he did to player.

 

When i see some faction that looks like zeal paladins i still should care and try to look for hints if they don't want to screw me over and what are their view on world is. When i take quest i should consider what it means for people involved and if that will change my relationship with people who i already know.

 

Sorry for my Engrish. I'm not native and i hope what I wrote is clear.

Edited September 18, 2012 by perkel

[Troller]

Nice man, I surely hope they include this too

[exodiark]

I agree, the suspense of doubting friends/followers is the best!

That's why I love Kreia and other Obsidian's followers

[Sensuki]

Real Eyes Realize Real Lies.

[Tigranes]

Excellent point, it really is underused in games and can have a great effect. It's amazing how there is a concrete norm where you find out 'The Truth' in the end, all you needed to do was piece together 2 opposing viewpoints, find a material piece of evidence against 1, then realise you have to bash the other side to get your optimal quest reward. (Of course, that's how it worked in a lot of police/mystery TV/films too....)

 

Arcanum's Siamese Twin skulls remains a landmark, and nobody still knows exactly what is the truth, and the player learns he has zero power to actually expose what seems to be a massive conspiracy. You never had a chance.

[perkel]

Nice man, I surely hope they include this too

 

They are already doing it in their games but those lies are mostly passive. Meaning even if you discover lie it is not that much connected with you because whole lie is created, delivered and resolved by developer not by player.

 

Give player choice to say no or give chance of asking addition questions where outcome is not clear and if player know to some extend that this quest is fishy he can try to confront with lie and resolve problem different way.

 

****-ups should be part of gameplay. I wanted to be good but party A lied me and now party B hates me.

[C2B]

Manipulation, both by NPC's as well as by the Player should be a standard feature in the game. NPC should have personalities you can manipulate in correspondance to your choices, but NPC's should also be able to fake them and do the same to you. A betrayel should never be predictable, except if the attempt of the NPC himself is hamfisted. (Or yours depending on your stats)

 

(At least is the general idea)

[perkel]

Excellent point, it really is underused in games and can have a great effect. It's amazing how there is a concrete norm where you find out 'The Truth' in the end, all you needed to do was piece together 2 opposing viewpoints, find a material piece of evidence against 1, then realise you have to bash the other side to get your optimal quest reward. (Of course, that's how it worked in a lot of police/mystery TV/films too....)

 

Arcanum's Siamese Twin skulls remains a landmark, and nobody still knows exactly what is the truth, and the player learns he has zero power to actually expose what seems to be a massive conspiracy. You never had a chance.

 

That is also big part of lie game. Sometimes you cannot simply know the truth.

 

Freespace2 ending comes close to that MAYOR SPOILERS:

 

Whole game you are fighting with aliens which with each day are just more powerfull and future of people is rather bleak.

But at the ending whole superbig fleet of aliens ship vanish in light of exploding star and they (aliens) probably didn't want to make war at all, they probably just wanted to use star and go back home. War is won, enemy run and you ask yourself for what were you fighting and if there was any enemy at all.

[SqueakyCat]

I think, written properly, it could add alot to the game. We all know Obsidian can tell a great story.

[perkel]

I think, written properly, it could add alot to the game. We all know Obsidian can tell a great story.

 

I can't think anyone in gaming industry who can do better this than Obsidian with their quality writing heritage.

[Sammael]

I'm just going to write down some names for people to ponder...

 

Kreia.

 

Nym.

 

Morte.

 

Ravel.

 

Trias.

 

Soego.

 

Brother Poquelin.

 

Do you really think Eternity won't feature similar characters?

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

I would like to add a minor detail. Those uncertainties should motivate a player to investigate, to think, to decide who can be trusted and who can not. There should not be so much uncertainty that you are forced to make a decision by flipping a coin.

[perkel]

I'm just going to write down some names for people to ponder...

 

Kreia.

 

Nym.

 

Morte.

 

Ravel.

 

Trias.

 

Soego.

 

Brother Poquelin.

 

Do you really think Eternity won't feature similar characters?

 

I know that Obsidian is already using that idea but my concept is little different to that. It means that player should experience it first hand and not by developer creation,execution and resolve combo.

 

What it means ?

 

For example Morte.

 

In PST for most of the game Morte lies to you. But you as player do not take any part in it. You are not the one who discover lies because you investigated and thought " wait a minute ! He said he didn't known me before then why he said that or why this man told me about him and me ? " Game stops and start dialog with Morte and you are asking questions revealing that he is lying to you.

 

By developer you are directed like on roadway to uncover lineary his motive and his agenda same is with ignus dak'on and other members of your party. By developer you are instructed that Morte is lying but he is good in his own way, you didn't conclude that game tales you that.

 

 

Now consider game do not tell you straight that Morte is lying. It is all good but then you notice that something is wrong. In some cases people remeber you and a scull but they aren't sure. And with rising evidences you as player is starting to feel insecure about him being in party. Now when you go that way scull pillar is completely different from player perspective. There is Morte who tells you no chief "i'm good !" and there is skull pillar which remember you and scull and tells you that Morte was lying all along.

 

Now if player didn't resolve yet Morte lies problem (meaning he didn't notice or didn't talk with morte about it) this will be mayor decision for player and he simply won't know what is right and may give morte to scull pillar.

 

In vanilla it isn't any mayor decision. It is be a bad guy and give Morte and be a good guy and do not give him. It is constructed that way beacuse we know that Morte is good guy and whole Morte is lier is not working there.

 

I don't say Planescape is bad at it, it's actually rather good and it's my best game ever but those ideas can be improved.

[Sammael]

I'm really not sure what you're saying (or how it is different than what has already been done).

 

In Torment, evidence against Morte slowly piles up. Depending on your choices, attributes, and in-game decisions, you can find out about his lies prior to the pillar of skulls (it's been a while, but I think you can resolve his torment as soon as you've rescued him from Lothar). On the other hand, you can choose to ignore the evidence, trust him, and not question his advice. The game is not railroading you in any way, since you have multiple ways of handling the situation.

 

If you are saying that you should be able to accuse each CNPC of lying at any point in the game simple because you, the player, are paranoid, this I will have to respectfully disagree with. Player knowledge (and paranoia) is not character knowledge (and paranoia). At best, I can see you picking a personality trait for your character at the beginning of the game (such as 'paranoid', 'naive', 'generous', 'lustful' and so on) that can affect the dialogues, including the ones with your companions.

[perkel]

I'm really not sure what you're saying (or how it is different than what has already been done).

 

In Torment, evidence against Morte slowly piles up. Depending on your choices, attributes, and in-game decisions, you can find out about his lies prior to the pillar of skulls (it's been a while, but I think you can resolve his torment as soon as you've rescued him from Lothar). On the other hand, you can choose to ignore the evidence, trust him, and not question his advice. The game is not railroading you in any way, since you have multiple ways of handling the situation.

 

If you are saying that you should be able to accuse each CNPC of lying at any point in the game simple because you, the player, are paranoid, this I will have to respectfully disagree with. Player knowledge (and paranoia) is not character knowledge (and paranoia). At best, I can see you picking a personality trait for your character at the beginning of the game (such as 'paranoid', 'naive', 'generous', 'lustful' and so on) that can affect the dialogues, including the ones with your companions.

 

Not at all, I don't say every NPC but simply player should't feel secure with people who he doesn't know. It's not like every NPC in game should screw you but player should think about his position, what quests could do and to not take every word from NPC as 100% true.

 

As of Morte. There is no freaking way to miss that Morte is actually good guy. Game reminds that to you in many places and there is no chance to miss that if you are homo sapiens. Difference to my idea is execution.

 

You should try The Void or Pathologic and see what i mean. But those aren't easy games in therm of gameplay. Pathologic is rather unplayable in therms of gameplay and The Void also has problems (but it is totaly playable!) but lie execution in both games are excelent. The Void is on steam.

 

If somebody lies to you in Pathologic you simply do not know of this unless you find it yourself and even if you know that someone has lied to you, you still to figure out why if that is even possible and if you want to confront it with lier you need some solid proofs.

 

Here is some article on Pathologic by RPS

Edited September 18, 2012 by perkel

[Sammael]

Morte is not really a "good guy". None of the characters in Torment are. They can be your "good friends" (if treated well) but they aren't "good guys" by any stretch of imagination. They are drawn to you like moths to a candle, and they will steal, cheat, lie, and murder for your sake. They are prejudiced (Dak'kon), hypocritical (Fall-From-Grace), amoral (Annah), zealous to the point of genocide (Vhailor)

 

And that's one of the beauties of Torment.

[perkel]

Morte is not really a "good guy". None of the characters in Torment are. They can be your "good friends" (if treated well) but they aren't "good guys" by any stretch of imagination. They are drawn to you like moths to a candle, and they will steal, cheat, lie, and murder for your sake. They are prejudiced (Dak'kon), hypocritical (Fall-From-Grace), amoral (Annah), zealous to the point of genocide (Vhailor)

 

And that's one of the beauties of Torment.

 

Yes i know that. Good guy was used as your friend not as good guy directly. Sorry to not make it clear at first.

[perkel]

Shameless bump.

 

Also to add to this debate. It was mentioned earlier in RPS article but you people should try to play Pathologic if you get chance of buying it. It is crappy game, full of junk and sometimes very bad gameplay. BUT... atmosphere, world, story and lies are 1st grade gold. As i mentioned my best game ever is PST but if Pathologic wasn't pile of crap because of gameplay that game would be my 1st and PST second. Story-wise and dialog-wise PST is better but real lies in Pathologic simply elevate game and player involvement like no other game. You simply think all the time about what is happening and you try to think outside of the box. It is also like Last Expres meaning that events take place regardless of player involvement meaning if you do nothing game will still go on and will resolve itself probably in a bad way.

 

Other honorable mention:

The Witcher 1 (second is not that good in this area)

[diablo169]

I think you can count on Obsidian to feature at least some of this type of content, they have done so many times already.

[perkel]

I think you can count on Obsidian to feature at least some of this type of content, they have done so many times already.

 

I know, they did but yet their implementation of this "feature" can be much much much much better. People should have their own agenda, they should sometimes lie like we do sometimes in bad way sometimes in a good way. Player should be involved and try to read NPC agenda. This also means that sometimes there is way of knowing true. Some character may lie you but player should judge if that lie was something major or not and if this change anything in player view of this character or faction.

 

Avellone is terrific writer as we know this already but he should improve in that aspect. Less narrator more player involvement.

[Director]

Playing the first Witcher game atm, and that also has a "Who's telling the truth?" element to the game, where you accuse people of things, and they just say "Nope - wasn't me".

 

I have to say I was completely taken off guard, I'd been trained by years of RPG Villians just going "Aha - you've found me out! Only too late for you Mwhahaha".

 

It's certainly different, and I SHOULD enjoy it, but for some reason I kinda miss the black and white vengeance, of finding out who is guilty and then dealing to them. (Wipe hands - quest complete). The whole, "well wait - can I be sure it was this guy?", affects my OCD requirement to FINISH ALL QUEST.

[perkel]

Playing the first Witcher game atm, and that also has a "Who's telling the truth?" element to the game, where you accuse people of things, and they just say "Nope - wasn't me".

 

I have to say I was completely taken off guard, I'd been trained by years of RPG Villians just going "Aha - you've found me out! Only too late for you Mwhahaha".

 

It's certainly different, and I SHOULD enjoy it, but for some reason I kinda miss the black and white vengeance, of finding out who is guilty and then dealing to them. (Wipe hands - quest complete). The whole, "well wait - can I be sure it was this guy?", affects my OCD requirement to FINISH ALL QUEST.

 

Haha not only that. Even if you have solid proof they still say "No. that wasn't me" and here you are standing like idiot because you are used to thrustworthy NPC even villans and you simply doubt yourself.

 

Section of poisoned dude and detective aspect of that comes to mind. First time after my investigation i killed Rumsmeat dude.

When i was replaying game my investigation gone in different way and by the looks of it Rumsmeat was innocent. I killed him earlier because he was already mean sonofab... and i felt into trap and killed him. Whole investigation was just mind blowing **** when you go same way i did (meaning 1st ****up and 2nd good). What is more interesting is that I only discovered that because i replayed game if i wouldn't do that i would thought to this day that Rumsmeat was culprit.

 

Totally cool idea in my opinion would be to screw with players who want to be evil. After murdering whole village of villagers people who gave you quest tell you that you are their hero because villagers were sick to some virus and people in other villages asked this man to rid of them by any means. Not only you helped other villages saving them but also you will probably die in few weeks/months because you to are sick now.

[Director]

[Haha not only that. Even if you have solid proof they still say "No. that wasn't me" and here you are standing like idiot because you are used to thrustworthy NPC even villans and you simply doubt yourself.

 

Exactly the issue! I'm all - "well... I'm not 100% sure...", but I MUST FINISH QUEST! TELL ME WHO IS GUILTY PLZ!

 

Too used to having a gold arrow point me directly to the villain.

[perkel]

Also i think this idea needs to be tied with removing quest markers. Because quest markers simply ruing idea of exploration and thinking.

[Hormalakh]

Wow, very powerful. Two things come to mind immediately.

 

1- Some lies are unwitting. The person doesn't know that he or she is lying. They might be giving you information and you wouldn't really know that they're wrong because they don't know that they're wrong (the unknown unknowns).

 

2- Some of the best movies (Memento and Inception do a great job) out there are those that never really exactly tell you what is truth and what is falsity. I don't mean that they try to gimmick their way out. There is an objective reality, but the audience (the movie viewer) is given information through the filter of the protagonist. All information is filtered through the lens of the protagonist. At the end of the movie, the audience doesn't exactly know what to believe. But the story has an end and a finality to it - it's not gimmicky. Talk to anyone about that movie and people fall into two different camps - they have two differing answers. One is true objectively, but its hard to tell which is. It leads people to revisit the movie to look for more clues in finding out exactly what is truth and what is false through filters outside of the main protagonist.

 

This would lead to an amazing story that people would love to keep coming back to.