Level scaling

[wanderon]

It occurs to me that these forums may just be in the running for the coveted Tiny Award for the largest collection of poorly constructed poll choices ever...

 

 

As to level scaling I'm pretty sure Josh has already said thats not happening in PE...which IMO is a very good thing...

 

J.E. Sawyer, on 02 October 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

 

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

Edited October 14, 2012 by wanderon

[TrashMan]

One thing to have in mind is that many players fall prey to "game thinking" insted of "roleplay thinking".

 

They will go after the toughest mosnters and challenges, even if there is rationally no chance of sucess.

Cthulu? We're taking him on! Why? BECAUSE HE'S THERE!

 

I don't mind at all if players like that get their asses handed to them so hard, their grandchildren still feel it.

[Loranc]

On level scaling:

 

“We will have very little level scaling and almost entirely in critical path areas since there’s a lot of variability in when players approach them. Especially when it comes to optional content and general exploration, there will be no level-scaling. In this regard, Fallout: New Vegas might be a fair comparison.” – Josh Sawyer

[dlux]

It occurs to me that these forums may just be in the running for the coveted Tiny Award for the largest collection of poorly constructed poll choices ever...

 

 

As to level scaling I'm pretty sure Josh has already said thats not happening in PE...which IMO is a very good thing...

 

J.E. Sawyer, on 02 October 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

 

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

Edited October 14, 2012 by dlux

[dlux]

One thing to have in mind is that many players fall prey to "game thinking" insted of "roleplay thinking".

 

They will go after the toughest mosnters and challenges, even if there is rationally no chance of sucess.

Cthulu? We're taking him on! Why? BECAUSE HE'S THERE!

 

I don't mind at all if players like that get their asses handed to them so hard, their grandchildren still feel it.

Yup. Hand holding sucks.

 

Basically with level scaling the main quest will probably always feel equally difficult, no matter how much effort you put into leveling your characters. If you do a bunch of side quests and return to the main campaign, then you won't feel any more powerful because of the level scaling (unless you found some really good items).

[C2B]

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

 

He NEVER said they don't do level scaling. And even before he said, that if they do it it's just going to be in the main story, so that you don't end up overpowered for it.

 

Which is what he said in that Pcgamer Quote. So, no.

Edited October 14, 2012 by C2B

[Loranc]

One thing to have in mind is that many players fall prey to "game thinking" insted of "roleplay thinking".

 

They will go after the toughest mosnters and challenges, even if there is rationally no chance of sucess.

Cthulu? We're taking him on! Why? BECAUSE HE'S THERE!

 

I don't mind at all if players like that get their asses handed to them so hard, their grandchildren still feel it.

Yup. Hand holding sucks.

 

Basically with level scaling the main quest will probably always feel equally difficult, no matter how much effort you put into leveling your characters. If you do a bunch of side quests and return to the main campaign, then you won't feel any more powerful because of the level scaling (unless you found some really good items).

 

Maybe a bad example, but non level scaling quests in Final Fantasy Tactics made me cry. I loved leveling up on the random battles, getting money for gear etc. But what I didn't know was that the quests didn't scale and every encounter was a breeze. It was so bad that I could barely survive the random encounters due to not having access to better gear yet, I was at the start of the game. While the main story line battles were a joke.

[dlux]

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

 

He NEVER said they don't do level scaling. And even before he said, that if they do it it's just going to be in the main story, so that you don't end up overpowered for it.

 

Which is what he said in that Pcgamer Quote. So, no.

He said that they might use very little scaling or probably none at all. The "none at all" does not seem to be the case anymore.

 

Anyway, New Vegas used a lot more than a little level scaling. But like I wrote in a post a few above this one - we really still have no idea how and to which degree they are going to actually implement level scaling. If it is on a scale like the IE games, then that is fine - and that is what I expect when he says "very little scaling".

Edited October 14, 2012 by dlux

[PeonWarrior]

I just want a variety of enemies and difficult ones to boot. Hate fighting the same Darkspawn / Draugr from when I'm level 5 all the way to 20.

[MichaelStuart]

I would prefer there not be any level scaling. That being said I don't won't to get to a point were the enemies become easy.

[Paragon_Of_Insanity]

I voted for no level scaling, though my favourite idea would be no scaling for stronger enemies and "poorly level scaling" for weak ones. Making the weak foes slightly stronger and more like minions of stronger foes.

Something like this:

A guard will be Lv 10 with 100stat points and will scale +5 level.

An elite guard will start at Lv20 with 260stat points and will scale +7 level.

Your guy warrior will start at Lv1 with 15stat points and scale +10 level.

[Valorian]

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

 

This kind of reasoning (crit plot crit path and movieplot only omg!!) brought us the abomination of level scaling in the first place.

 

The whole game is a set of plots and little stories. The critical path is only one of them. The player should reasonably expect that the critical path has some of the toughest combat encounters in the game.

 

Why should designers accommodate a minority that is only interested in railroading themselves through the critical path (movie-style) ignoring the rest of the game, and ruin the experience for everyone else by introducing this nonsense?

 

These critical path encounters won't be boring if, logically, they're some of the toughest fights in the game. You want to beat them? Stop crying, explore the world, train with your weapons and spells, find some powerful artifacts and then come back and deal with the big bads. Level scaling is not needed at all for them to not be boring.. what is needed is just some player/designer common sense.

 

You should check you reading comprehension, I was talking about over leveling. From what you are saying I guess that only way you can deal with tough encounters is grind side quests and find +x equipment MMO stile. Don't worry you will be able to do that because level scaling is probably going to be limited.

 

I've comprehended your BS just fine. Not that I'd miss anything intelligent if I hadn't.

You, on the other hand, keep missing the point. Of course it's about leveling, you little pumpkin.

 

Yes, the only way you can deal with tough encounters is... *drum roll* ... by getting stronger; leveling up. Who would have thought, right? And you level up and get stronger by.. *drum roll* .. completing quests and defeating enemies.

 

If exploration in a non-linear quality RPG is "grinding" and a "MMO style" feature in your parallel universe... you'll probably enjoy DA2 a lot.

 

And your last sentence shows how you fail at logic yet again. You'd be able to "grind" regardless of level scaling. And you keep misusing the word "grind": there won't be grinding in PE unless they don't have the common sense to not make enemies respawn over and over again.

[ImNotCreative]

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

 

This kind of reasoning (crit plot crit path and movieplot only omg!!) brought us the abomination of level scaling in the first place.

 

The whole game is a set of plots and little stories. The critical path is only one of them. The player should reasonably expect that the critical path has some of the toughest combat encounters in the game.

 

Why should designers accommodate a minority that is only interested in railroading themselves through the critical path (movie-style) ignoring the rest of the game, and ruin the experience for everyone else by introducing this nonsense?

 

These critical path encounters won't be boring if, logically, they're some of the toughest fights in the game. You want to beat them? Stop crying, explore the world, train with your weapons and spells, find some powerful artifacts and then come back and deal with the big bads. Level scaling is not needed at all for them to not be boring.. what is needed is just some player/designer common sense.

 

You should check you reading comprehension, I was talking about over leveling. From what you are saying I guess that only way you can deal with tough encounters is grind side quests and find +x equipment MMO stile. Don't worry you will be able to do that because level scaling is probably going to be limited.

 

I've comprehended your BS just fine. Not that I'd miss anything intelligent if I hadn't.

You, on the other hand, keep missing the point. Of course it's about leveling, you little pumpkin.

 

Yes, the only way you can deal with tough encounters is... *drum roll* ... by getting stronger; leveling up. Who would have thought, right? And you level up and get stronger by.. *drum roll* .. completing quests and defeating enemies.

 

If exploration in a non-linear quality RPG is "grinding" and a "MMO style" feature in your parallel universe... you'll probably enjoy DA2 a lot.

 

And your last sentence shows how you fail at logic yet again. You'd be able to "grind" regardless of level scaling. And you keep misusing the word "grind": there won't be grinding in PE unless they don't have the common sense to not make enemies respawn over and over again.

 

No, you didn't comprehended "my BS". I would try to explain it further but it is pointless since you resorted to insults. Why even bother with that reply? You wanted to show how hardcore and cool you are? Do you want to turn this forum in echo chamber that only repeats your ideas? Grow up, you accomplishes nothing with your snarky replies.

[C2B]

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

 

He NEVER said they don't do level scaling. And even before he said, that if they do it it's just going to be in the main story, so that you don't end up overpowered for it.

 

Which is what he said in that Pcgamer Quote. So, no.

He said that they might use very little scaling or probably none at all. The "none at all" does not seem to be the case anymore.

 

Anyway, New Vegas used a lot more than a little level scaling. But like I wrote in a post a few above this one - we really still have no idea how and to which degree they are going to actually implement level scaling. If it is on a scale like the IE games, then that is fine - and that is what I expect when he says "very little scaling".

 

He said IF. IF. That does in no way imply fact. And he DID just after that clarify (don't remember where though). That he might do it on the criticall/main path.

New Vegas seemed to have a lot of scaling for two reasons

 

1. Open world/sandbox game

 

2. There was a different level scaling method employed as a standard which worked within level range. That's also why the Deathclaw Quarry is always a deathtrap in the beginning.

 

However Sawyer was refering to F:NV as a refrence for what he said. Meaning he was refering to the main path scaling which was out of range. Not the second one mentioned. Nothing has actually changed from what we've known before. Just that they're more seriously considering to scale the main path to not let the player get overpowered in sidequests. (Which I assume is the reason)

Edited October 14, 2012 by C2B

[Valorian]

No, you didn't comprehended "my BS". I would try to explain it further but it is pointless since you resorted to insults. Why even bother with that reply? You wanted to show how hardcore and cool you are? Do you want to turn this forum in echo chamber that only repeats your ideas? Grow up, you accomplishes nothing with your snarky replies.

 

Awww. *passes ImNotCreative a tissue to wipe the tears*

[dlux]

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

 

He NEVER said they don't do level scaling. And even before he said, that if they do it it's just going to be in the main story, so that you don't end up overpowered for it.

 

Which is what he said in that Pcgamer Quote. So, no.

He said that they might use very little scaling or probably none at all. The "none at all" does not seem to be the case anymore.

 

Anyway, New Vegas used a lot more than a little level scaling. But like I wrote in a post a few above this one - we really still have no idea how and to which degree they are going to actually implement level scaling. If it is on a scale like the IE games, then that is fine - and that is what I expect when he says "very little scaling".

 

He said IF. IF. That does in no way imply fact. And he DID just after that clarify (don't remember where though). That he might do it on the criticall/main path.

He first said Project Eternity might use very little level scaling or probably none at all. After the PC Games chat we now know that Project Eternity will in fact definitely use level scaling, similar to what was used in New Vegas, which only level scaled the main campaign. In New Vegas the entire critical path used level scaling extensively and that is the problem.

 

New Vegas seemed to have a lot of scaling for two reasons

 

1. Open world/sandbox game

 

2. There was a different level scaling method employed as a standard which worked within level range. That's also why the Deathclaw Quarry is always a deathtrap in the beginning.

Yup. The entire main quest was level scaled (which was a huge part of the game), not certain areas and side quests. I already wrote this.

 

However Sawyer was refering to F:NV as a refrence for what he said. Meaning he was refering to the main path scaling which was out of range. Not the second one mentioned. Nothing has actually changed from what we've known before. Just that they're more seriously considering to scale the main path to not let the player get overpowered in sidequests. (Which I assume is the reason)

Nobody has a problem with a little scaling to balance out some issues, it was already used in the Inifnity Engine games, but these used encounter scaling and not level scaling and they did not use it very often. The problem is that he referenced New Vegas, a game that used level scaling extensively.

 

If they are going to slighty scale the game to resolve some balancing issues, then they should use encounter scaling and not level scaling. And it should only use very little scaling and not a lot like in New Vegas.

 

But like I have said many times, you and I both don't know what they are really up to, and how and to which degree level scaling or encounter scaling will be included in the game, because they don't really say anything about it. All we now know is that there will in fact be some kind of level/encounter scaling in the game. Which is fine if it is done right, like in the IE games. If they do in fact include level scaling similar to what we had in New Vegas (which means a lot of level scaling), then Project Eternity will be more of a spiritual successor to Dragon Age: Origins and not the Inifinity Engine games.

Edited October 15, 2012 by dlux

[Loranc]

This thread has shown up again because Josh apparently changed his mind about level scaling (a little or maybe a lot?). ^^

 

Look at the post above this one (Loranc's). That is a quote from the PC Gamer chat.

 

He NEVER said they don't do level scaling. And even before he said, that if they do it it's just going to be in the main story, so that you don't end up overpowered for it.

 

Which is what he said in that Pcgamer Quote. So, no.

He said that they might use very little scaling or probably none at all. The "none at all" does not seem to be the case anymore.

 

Anyway, New Vegas used a lot more than a little level scaling. But like I wrote in a post a few above this one - we really still have no idea how and to which degree they are going to actually implement level scaling. If it is on a scale like the IE games, then that is fine - and that is what I expect when he says "very little scaling".

 

He said IF. IF. That does in no way imply fact. And he DID just after that clarify (don't remember where though). That he might do it on the criticall/main path.

He first said Project Eternity might use very little level scaling or probably none at all. After the PC Games chat we now know that Project Eternity will in fact definitely use level scaling, similar to what was used in New Vegas, which only level scaled the main campaign. In New Vegas the entire critical path used level scaling extensively and that is the problem.

 

New Vegas seemed to have a lot of scaling for two reasons

 

1. Open world/sandbox game

 

2. There was a different level scaling method employed as a standard which worked within level range. That's also why the Deathclaw Quarry is always a deathtrap in the beginning.

Yup. The entire main quest was level scaled (which was a huge part of the game), not certain areas and side quests. I already wrote this.

 

However Sawyer was refering to F:NV as a refrence for what he said. Meaning he was refering to the main path scaling which was out of range. Not the second one mentioned. Nothing has actually changed from what we've known before. Just that they're more seriously considering to scale the main path to not let the player get overpowered in sidequests. (Which I assume is the reason)

Nobody has a problem with a little scaling to balance out some issues, it was already used in the Inifnity Engine games, but these used encounter scaling and not level scaling and they did not use it very often. The problem is that he referenced New Vegas, a game that used level scaling extensively.

 

If they are going to slighty scale the game to resolve some balancing issues, then they should use encounter scaling and not level scaling. And it should only use very little scaling and not a lot like in New Vegas.

 

But like I have said many times, you and I both don't know what they are really up to, and how and to which degree level scaling or encounter scaling will be included in the game, because they don't really say anything about it. All we now know is that there will in fact be some kind of level/encounter scaling in the game. Which is fine if it is done right, like in the IE games. If they do in fact include level scaling similar to what we had in New Vegas (which means a lot of level scaling), then Project Eternity will be more of a spiritual successor to Dragon Age: Origins and not the Inifinity Engine games.

 

I kind of get the feeling that when he compared it to Fallout New Vegas that was an accident.

[Jarmo]

How about level scaling where it's done by game designers, not some automated system?

Mask of the Betrayer must have had automatic one as well, but still.. there were epic gnolls.

In lots of games you meet orcs in the beginning and then twice as strong orcs later.

[Exile2k4]

I voted for no level scaling, because I can't stand the system in games like Skyrim whereby you never really have a feel for how tough you are/an enemy is. However, I think what I'd really like to see is a game where the enemies individually stay at a static difficulty, but the encounters get harder (either by having larger numbers of enemies, more dangerous foes or a combination of the two), in a way that's directly tied in to the plot. In an over-simplistic example: if an area of the world featured a hill tribe, perhaps early in the game you might encounter small groups of foragers, whereas later the tribes might be displaced by some plot-related evil, and you might encounter large roaming bands uprooted from their homeland.