Tim Cain Interview at RPG-Codex

[C2B]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8416

 

Temple of Elemental Evil featured what is to this day the best translation of D&D to the PC. Sadly, there only was one game using that engine. Were there any plans to keep using it for other games, or perhaps license it to other developers, in a manner similar to the Infinity and Gold Box engines?

 

Yes, we had great plans for that engine. For the sequel to The Temple of Elemental Evil, Troika proposed using the super-module GDQ: Queen of the Spiders, which consists of seven modules from the popular Giants and Drow series, plus the special Q-series module that completed the adventure. In fact, we were going to let the players bring their characters over from ToEE directly into the QoS, so they could simply continue playing with the same group of characters. Alternatively, we had suggested using the engine to create the long-awaited Baldur's Gate 3, and Obsidian had also expressed interest in licensing the engine to make D&D licensed games. Unfortunately, Atari never followed up on any of these proposals.

[Wombat]

I don't think criticizing Troika games for being buggy was unfair. They were buggy, and I think there were two big reason why that was so. First, we tried putting a lot of features into these games. We really needed to learn how to edit, because we would spend a lot of man-hours putting a feature into a game that hardly any of the players would ultimately care about. For example, Arcanum had newspapers that reported on major incidents that were caused by the player, but I don't remember a single review mentioning that. We spent a lot of time getting that working, and those hours could have spent balancing real-time combat, or fixing the multiplayer code.

 

Second, we kept our team sizes small, both for budget and for management purposes. This meant we had less total man-hours to work with, and all of the late nights and weekends couldn't make up for the fact that we only had about a dozen people working on the Arcanum and Temple projects. Looking back, I am amazed our games were as feature-rich as they were, but I am not surprised they were as buggy as they were. We should have made some serious feature cuts early in their development.

 

Troika got characterized as

[Tigranes]

I think Obsidian has gotten a lot farther than Troika because (1) Feargus' industry network and ability to get contracts far surpasses Tim's, although part of it is that the Troika owners were always more restrictive about what they accepted, prefering to close the company; (2) There seems to be a greater willingness to get to grips with the business side of things, make hires in that area, etc.

 

Of course, Obsidian was always envisioned as a larger operation than Troika, and thus with slightly different ends.

[Bos_hybrid]

Another thing is Obsidian also benefited from doing sequels for other games, that's not a criticism (NWN2 were vastly superior to NWN), it just allowed them a easier start into the industry. Making sequels to already popular games is easier than starting up with a new IP.

 

Although I feel Obsidian still has the feature creep problem Troika had.

[Tigranes]

RPGs as we know it are sort of impossible without feature creep, really.

 

I do think Obsidian got a lot better at managing it, if you compare NWN2/K2 with AP/DS3 and even FNV. As in, there was feature creep, a lot of it, but the end product survived in better shape.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I don't think F:NV had a feature creep problem, it's mostly just the scope of the map/quests that wasn't properly managed. I don't know about Obsidian's talks with Bethesda, so it's possible that as contractors they had specific requests, but the game probably would have benefited from a smaller but more detailed map (less random shacks and one-room dungeons and more detail in the various main hubs, more environmental storytelling, etc.), a dramatic cut in terms of quests (even cutting a good number of fetch quests there still would have been a lot of very detailed ones to make up for that) and.. well it's fun to play armchair developer, innit?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Troika's games were far more ambitious for their time and more innovative than Obsidian's. At least Arcanum and Vampire anyway.

 

TOEE was the most polished, but it was too dry story and character wise.

 

However all of them either felt unfinished or were unfinished/broken to some extent, which is why I can't rate any of them highly (although Vampire is so unique its possible to overlook its flaws). Obsidian at least delivers a complete product (most of the time *cough* KOTOR2 *cough*).

 

All of them (or Obs and other old/new devs) need to tighten up their act if they're ever to reach Bioware in its prime - to consistently deliver a complete and (in all segments) well crafted product.

 

That Bioware took that achievement (which is no small thing in the gaming industry) and perverted it into a factory production of clone games is another matter.

[Lexx]

"Bioware in its prime" hehe. Thing is, Bioware isn't doing choice&consequence heavy games. All their C&C is flat and shallow... or let's call it fake. Making a linear game is far easier than a "real" rpg.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Lexx

[Drowsy Emperor]

C&C's don't matter if there is no substantial desire to see a particular outcome. I never cared, at all, about any choice in (for example) Fallout. There was no emotional investment in any of them. Same with Arcanum, the characters were lifeless, the story fodder.

 

No one has, or will ever be, able to define what a "real RPG" is. Its a highly subjective thing, even in pen and paper gaming. If playing a role is the minimum definition, then every game ever made can be considered an RPG.

[Nonek]

There was no emotional investment in any of them. Same with Arcanum, the characters were lifeless, the story fodder.

 

Now you're not calling Torian Kel lifeless surely?

 

Personally my taste run more towards Obsidians and Troikas blend of deep narrative, flawed human characters and interesting original settings that invert the usual stereotypes. But I must admit Bioware are very good at making their by the numbers, emotional and flattering power fantasies. They're all very easy to play and usually as solidly constructed as a brick outhouse. One can see why their accessibility trumps Obsidians ambition in many other peoples eyes.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well you probably haven't been around here long enough to know that my love for Bioware extends to, and ends with Throne of Bhaal. While BG had pretty standard characters and setting, BGII and ToB took the standard epic fantasy as far as it could go.

 

I assume that by deep narrative and flawed atypical characters you're referring to KOTOR II and Mask of the Betrayer, which are both in my eyes an attempt to recreate the experience of PS:Torment.

They both easily trump anything that BW made post ToB. So does VtM: Bloodlines.

 

But really, I was talking about "Bioware in its prime" in terms of polish and consistency. All those games are quite flawed, and Bioware already had a tight product with the first Baldur's Gate. I mean, KOTOR II had no ending, NWN 2 was buggy as hell, VtM:Bloodlines had crappy combat and a half baked last act and Arcanum had terrible location design with grindy combat areas (and the combat itself was broken half the time).

 

We've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but the fact is that there are a lot of problems with Obs and Troika's games.

 

I remember playing through VtM Bloodlines sewers and that building with the zombies, scratching my head in disbelief that anyone would allow that to end up in a finished product.

[Nonek]

Personally I feel Bioware still create some cracking fun adventures, but i'm fairly much in agreement with everything you said. Still Dungeon Siege speaks well for what Obsidian can do when using their own engine, and New Vegas stands as a testament for how much they can re-invigorate a setting when they use another developers.

[Drowsy Emperor]

New Vegas restored my faith in Obsidian more than any other game, to make a joke of it - its the first Elder Scrolls game I enjoyed.