More interaction with NPC's!

[Craftsman]

From the first game it was clear that the NCP could have reacted more or played a better role. For example on Koribban when i fought the Sith punks in the hall the surrounding NPC did nothing except contunue to stare and walk right past the battle! I also think that minor NPCs should have a major role in reflecting the choices you make. eg there could be riots, or you could get cheered ect on what you do. Just some thoughts

[CrashT]

I agree that NPCS should show more reactions. However getting all of them to react if you were to start a fight in the middle of a crowded location could bring some issues. Do you have everybody running away? Which could look very odd. Do you make it so people don't like you so much if they've seen you fighting? But then what if you had no choice. Do you make them notice who started the fight and reacted based on their opinions of the people involved? Ideal, but possibly a lot of work and a lot of information to keep track of always a problem. I guess since KoTOR 2 will have full Voice Overs (Which seems likely), having NPCs that react to all the things you could do and all the people you might fight would get difficult. Of course they could solve the problem by making most of the NPCs aliens but that'd get old pretty quickly.

[Craftsman]

Hmm. I guess that the devs and putting a lot of detail in this game. Thats what gamers what. Especailly in a RPG.

[Schazzwozzer]

The sad thing is that, while, perhaps more than anything else, I would like to see a game world that is more reactive to the player's actions, I don't think that the Odyssey engine (I believe that's what KotOR's engine is called) is built to have lots of mobile units milling about an area. There are all of these problems that crop up, terrible pathfinding and general clunky environments probably being foremost amongst them (I cringe to think what might happen with a lot of characters moving about a cramped cantina).

 

Even if the developers did want to make the NPCs particularly reactive to the PC and his actions, I don't know if the mechanics are even in place. For example, say that the designers want to implement an area unfriendly to jedi. To this end, they want all of the NPCs to freak if the player equips his lightsaber. Are the mechanics in place to support this? Can a script check what the player has equipped? If so, how will the NPCs react? Does everyone start running away? If so, where to? Is this whole idea even practical, considering the nature of the engine?

 

In the end though, KotOR and, I can only assume, KotOR 2 are much more adventure or puzzle games (wherein you are "playing the designer") than any kind of interactive simulation. Virtually every possibility that is allowed in KotOR has been pre-prepared. The only system the game boasts which could be considered a simulation is the combat system (and Pazaak too, I suppose), and nothing particularly interesting can happen there. The end result is that you defeat all red units or you die. It's not like a stray grenade can bring neutral units into the fight or anything.

[kefka]

It's funny how you can break into someone's apartment, rob them blind while they watch, and calmly walk out with your booty. It's reasonable to expect some reaction in this case. And bystanders pay no attention either while you're busting down your victim's door.

[roguefrog]

I just want to be able to attack anyone. Friendly, Hostile, and Neutral alike. Party NPCs too!

[CrashT]

Schazzwozzer, there must be some sort of script to check which weapons (Or at least which type) are equiped. Onboard the Endar Spire you cannot enter the bridge unless you have Melee weapons equiped and actually get stopped if you have a blaster equiped. There's also some points where you need to be unequiped for events to occur.

 

 

I got over the whole thing of stealing from people and having them not notice. It's been an RPG staple for years, changing it now would somehow feel wrong.

 

When you get into the possibilities of attacking everybody you have to worry about the possibility that the player could gain XP but murder everybody they met. My solution would be to give a negative XP for murder friendly or non-hostiles because it's not much of a challenge to murder people who don't want to harm you. Also you've got to worry about the story if you can simply attack and possibly kill anybody you like.

[kefka]

I got over the whole thing of stealing from people and having them not notice. It's been an RPG staple for years, changing it now would somehow feel wrong.

You only have to pick something up in Morrowind and NPCs want to kill you.

 

Even Caius will try to smash your face in if you touch his stuff.

 

[CrashT]

Note, I never said I liked the idea only that I'd gotten used to it; and in fact having NPCs get annoyed was a little hard to adjust to with Morrowind. Which is weird given that it was handled in a more "realistic" manner. Maybe I'm just too used to games than the real world

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I got over the whole thing of stealing from people and having them not notice. It's been an RPG staple for years, changing it now would somehow feel wrong.

I can't see how this is a staple, given NPCs do react on various ocasions (in several CRPGs, for that matter).

[CrashT]

I can only talk from personal experience. In most of the CRPGs I've played, the common behaviour is for people to not notice if I steal stuff from right under their noses. The nearest I usually seem to get is a situation where I can't sell stolen good at certain places, but I've only seen that rarely.

 

Of course my experience with CRPGs is limited; I've been told the situation was fairly similar through most CRPGs. Hence it appears to be a "RPG staple." Maybe I've just been playing the wrong CRPGs.

[Schazzwozzer]

Schazzwozzer, there must be some sort of script to check which weapons (Or at least which type) are equiped. Onboard the Endar Spire you cannot enter the bridge unless you have Melee weapons equiped and actually get stopped if you have a blaster equiped. There's also some points where you need to be unequiped for events to occur.

Yeah, I think you're right. I also recall a quest on Kashyyk in which one was to hunt down a group of Mandalorians who would only appear if the player's group did not have weapons equipped.

 

I can only talk from personal experience. In most of the CRPGs I've played, the common behaviour is for people to not notice if I steal stuff from right under their noses. The nearest I usually seem to get is a situation where I can't sell stolen good at certain places, but I've only seen that rarely.

You're correct that many RPGs do not bother with even giving their NPCs basic concern for their own belongings. I couldn't say why this is, but it's certainly something that's fully possible given current technology. To name a few that have gone this extra mile, the later games in the Ultima series (starting with Ultima VI, I believe, in 1990), Fallout, Gothic, and, as mentioned above, Morrowind all have featured anti-theft NPC AI.

 

In fact, on the topic of anti-theft AI, this is something that KotOR is capable of. I recall that in the sand people's village, if you open one of their stupid wicker baskets, the entire population will turn hostile. I imagine that the reason this wasn't implemented elsewhere in the game is because nobody could figure out any appropriate reaction behavior. It wouldn't be very fitting, after all, for a family in Taris to attack you because you stole their medkit, so you have to deal with the question of, should they run away? Where to? Is it practical? Etc, etc.

[StillLife]

In fact, on the topic of anti-theft AI, this is something that KotOR is capable of. I recall that in the sand people's village, if you open one of their stupid wicker baskets, the entire population will turn hostile. I imagine that the reason this wasn't implemented elsewhere in the game is because nobody could figure out any appropriate reaction behavior. It wouldn't be very fitting, after all, for a family in Taris to attack you because you stole their medkit, so you have to deal with the question of, should they run away? Where to? Is it practical? Etc, etc.

In the case of somewhat defenseless NPCs, they could have had them demand that you leave their stuff alone. Maybe if you continued to steal the stuff after you've been warned, then you're given a dark side point for every item you take. That might be a bit harsh though. Of course if you were stealthy about it, and they didn't notice, there would be no punishment.

 

By now, you would think it should be a standard that NPCs in RPGs are going to react to things you do, like stealing their valuables. If some dude came bursting into my home and started taking whatever he wanted, I don't think I'd just stand around waiting for him to strike up a conversation with a big goofy grin on my face. Its a total immersion killer.

[Darque]

Shouldn't this thread be called "More reactions from NPC's!"?

 

[CrashT]

The problem with having NPCs that react to the player is when to draw the line. If they just say "Hey stop nicking my stuff". That's good. But if you keep doing it and they keep saying that some people are going to shout that the game is broken because the NPCs only ever say "Hey stop nicking my stuff".

 

So maybe you add in some additional reactions, so that if you keep stealing things or annoying people they get more aggrevated. But somebody will just try to push them too far and then what? In a game where the AI's react some people will always feel the reactions are wrong. I say just settle on a standard and stick to it.

 

I say give the NPCs a couple of lines of reaction dialogue ala:

Level 1 - "What do you think you're doing?"

Level 2 - "Hey, stop that! That's not yours." + Character will no longer talk to you beyond "Get out!"

Level 3 - "Right thats it, get out!" + Maybe Dark Side point.

 

Maybe if you have some naturally aggresive character, ala Sand People, then they'll attack on Level 3. But players should always get a warning, becuase otherwise somebody is going to get annoyed about being killed merely for "looking".

 

 

The problem is what if you steal stuff from a character important to the plot? Should they then not talk to you (Which would probably be realistic), or do you just accept that sometimes concessions have to be made for the sake of plot and ignore any "minor" issues there might be between the two of you?

[tripleRRR]

I am all for adding dark side points, to a degree, petty theft should not give you a dark side rating = Lord Vader, but some DS points should be doled out to characters who are neutral grey or light side. I

 

f you are a sith then you could care less if people don't like you breaking into their homes and taking their stuff.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Eurmal]

Dark/Light side points are not reputation but are supposed to be the main characters spiritual condition. Characters gain Light/Dark side points not as a reward/punishment but as a role-playing result. So, if the character knows stealing makes the owner unhappy and did it, he/she will probably get dark points even if unnoticed but if he/she did it to recover some people

[StillLife]

You're right that it was too mechanical at times, as well as predictbable. It would have been better if they didn't even tell you when you got points, or how many. It should be a hidden system.

 

I really loved how theft was handled in the Gothics. You go into someones house uninvited and the owner will draw their weapon on you and warn you to get out. If you don't, they'll attack. You can beat them into unconsciousness or even kill them, in which case, everyone in town will know you're a muderer and treat you accordingly.

[Craftsman]

Thats what i mean. Like in KOTOR one when i stood up to the gangs on Taris people on the surface could have all said how a good/bad job i was doing. Really grahics mean nothing if the gamer cant be immeresed with the realism of a game that KOTOR 2 will hopefully be.