Debt crisis

[Cantousent]

EDIT: Just too depressing. There's no need for me to contribute to such a depressing topic. ...But I have had a lot of fun reading it.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Cantousent

[Walsingham]

I've been posting for a while on the dangers of machines assuming military powers in political life. It sounds as if we're addressing the dangers of machines assuming economic power. In both cases what is undoubtedly a tactical win translates into big negative consequences. Yet with the advantages so obvious what nation or culture will turn aside from them? Mor eimportantly could any nation or culture turn their rise to their advantage? If so, how?

 

 

 

On topic: A neat article on why Italy may not be in trouble. It must be wrong, because it makes sense to me. Probably too simplistic.

[Humodour]

I've been posting for a while on the dangers of machines assuming military powers in political life. It sounds as if we're addressing the dangers of machines assuming economic power. In both cases what is undoubtedly a tactical win translates into big negative consequences. Yet with the advantages so obvious what nation or culture will turn aside from them? Mor eimportantly could any nation or culture turn their rise to their advantage? If so, how?

 

 

 

On topic: A neat article on why Italy may not be in trouble. It must be wrong, because it makes sense to me. Probably too simplistic.

 

Your ideas amuse me, and I wish to subscribe to your magazine.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's fascinating to me but so far as I can establish he simply refuses to accept the existence of second order effects. I've given up worrying about him.

 

Sometimes I really wonder where you obtain the alien logic you use to reach some of your conclusions.

 

 

Systems theory. But don't let that worry you. It's only used to run every major technology and manufacturing firm in the world. FFS I thought you were studying for an MBA?

I don't know any technology firm that's run on systems theory, certainly not any I've worked for. And how exactly does systems theory show that I wouldn't care if someone was hit by lightning? Anyway, I think you have me confused with someone else, I'm not studying for anything, I've been an engineer for 25 years.

[Humodour]

It's fascinating to me but so far as I can establish he simply refuses to accept the existence of second order effects. I've given up worrying about him.

 

Sometimes I really wonder where you obtain the alien logic you use to reach some of your conclusions.

 

 

Systems theory. But don't let that worry you. It's only used to run every major technology and manufacturing firm in the world. FFS I thought you were studying for an MBA?

I don't know any technology firm that's run on systems theory, certainly not any I've worked for. And how exactly does systems theory show that I wouldn't care if someone was hit by lightning? Anyway, I think you have me confused with someone else, I'm not studying for anything, I've been an engineer for 25 years.

 

Um, look, as nutty as Wals is sometimes, and as annoying as it is to hear him claim yet again that his logic is sound because he 'understands systems theory', I scoff mightily at your claim that you don't know any technology firm run on systems theory.

 

I say bull ****ing ****. Systems theory underpins all engineering, information, scientific, economic, and mathematical disciplines and companies based on them.

 

In fact, systems theory is especially crucial to engineering...

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, I know what I know and you don't. I didn't say you don't know any technology firms run on systems theory, but I welcome any examples you might wish to offer.

[Calax]

Systems theory is the transdisciplinary study of systems in general, with the goal of elucidating principles that can be applied to all types of systems at all nesting levels in all fields of research. The term does not yet have a well-established, precise meaning, but systems theory can reasonably be considered a specialization of systems thinking, a generalization of systems science, a systems approach. The term originates from Bertalanffy's General System Theory (GST) and is used in later efforts in other fields, such as the action theory of Talcott Parsons and the system-theory of Niklas Luhmann.

 

Thus quoth Wikipedia.

 

From Same Article (Titled "Systems Theory")

 

In the 1960s, systems theory was adopted by the post John Von Neumann computing and information technology field and, in fact, formed the basis of structured analysis and structured design (see also Larry Constantine, Tom DeMarco and Ed Yourdon). It was also the basis for early software engineering and computer-aided software engineering principles.

 

By the 1970s, General Systems Theory (GST) was the fundamental underpinning of most commercial software design techniques, and by the 1980, W. Vaughn Frick and Albert F. Case, Jr. had used GST to design the "missing link" transformation from system analysis (defining what's needed in a system) to system design (what's actually implemented) using the Yourdon/DeMarco notation. These principles were incorporated into computer-aided software engineering tools delivered by Nastec Corporation, Transform Logic, Inc., KnowledgeWare (see Fran Tarkenton and James Martin), Texas Instruments, Arthur Andersen and ultimately IBM Corporation.

 

The UNIX operating system, as described by Eric Raymond, is a good early example of a symmetrical, integrated system within the area of computer science.

[Walsingham]

I'm not studying for anything, I've been an engineer for 25 years.

 

Hoagy shiznitt.

 

Sorry to break this to you, old man. First example I checked: General Dynamics

 

At GD Canada, Systems Engineering is an interdisciplinary process. We take a holistic view of the system to ensure that the operational capabilities required by the customer are designed into the entire system. Our current company-wide CMMI level 5 certification attests to our commitment to process improvement.

 

Tip of the hat to Krez and Calax for jumping in.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Systems engineering just means that they design systems, doesn't it? I guess it sounds better than saying we design widgets.

 

Edit:

 

The term does not yet have a well-established, precise meaning, but systems theory can reasonably be considered a specialization of systems thinking, a generalization of systems science, a systems approach.

That pretty much say it all, doesn't it? Management bull**** alert activated.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Wrath of Dagon

[Walsingham]

I share your alarm at management bull, so can see why you might have switched off.

 

Yes, some companies use the term sloppily, just the way some firms say 'logistics' instead of 'moving stuff about'. But that doesn't mean some companies don't use it. Principles and standards of getting what customers want, methods of testing and demonstrating the usefulness of new stuff, methods of testing for and demonstrating complex emergent properties (when it is going to break). All that is systems engineering. And there's a lot more.

 

More importantly , it doesn't mean that the world doesn't use it! For me the heart of it is complexity. Understanding that ALL things are complex, because even something simple like a spanner is nested within other systems, cultural, legal, environmental. they interact with the spanner, and make its behaviour hard to predict. Those ol' unintended consequences.

Scenario:

 

Two men, A and B live side by side on a lovely beach. A gets angry because B constantly burns his trash, which stinks up the air and spoils the view. This is a mild, but irritating problem. A talks to B and B stops burning his trash. Malarial mosquitos, now unaffected by the smoke, enter both men's homes, and the men die of malaria.

 

The purpose of systems theory and systems engineering is to assert that we know damn well that smoke affects insects. We know insects are everywhere. We know the smoke has been a constant. If we asked A or B we would discover that they do not suffer from insects, and this is unexpected.

 

Really good engineers have always been systems engineers. But the whole point of the profession of engineering is to codify and formalise what would otherwise be art.

[Gorth]

But the whole point of the profession of engineering is to codify and formalise what would otherwise be art.

I thought the point was to come up with new widgets

[Walsingham]

But the whole point of the profession of engineering is to codify and formalise what would otherwise be art.

I thought the point was to come up with new widgets

 

No. That's TRIZ.

 

EDIT: Krezack would like TRIZ.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Walsingham

[Humodour]

But the whole point of the profession of engineering is to codify and formalise what would otherwise be art.

I thought the point was to come up with new widgets

 

No. That's TRIZ.

 

EDIT: Krezack would like TRIZ.

 

Hmmm, sweet, I'll check that out! It's kind of an abstract concept, but anything that involves trying derive a reliable formula for inventing has instant appeal to me.

 

Each day I think a little more that maybe I'd enjoy an engineering degree. Especially after taking a look at the salaries for chemists. I don't want to learn quantum chemistry and then earn $40,000 a year, maybe even making it to a whooping $60 grand one day. No thanks.

[Gorth]

No. That's TRIZ.

That sounds like the entertainment industry of today...

 

As a teenager I once came up with the brilliant idea of writing a program that could write programs. The idea was that in one kilobyte on an eight bit system, there was a finite amount of programs possible. Of course it fell flat on its belly when it came to figure out a way of evaluate the result for beneficial effects and identify the new patentable algorithms from the random system disk formatting algorithm and the 99.99999% unusable white noise

 

Yes, the folly of youth

[Walsingham]

No. That's TRIZ.

That sounds like the entertainment industry of today...

 

As a teenager I once came up with the brilliant idea of writing a program that could write programs. The idea was that in one kilobyte on an eight bit system, there was a finite amount of programs possible. Of course it fell flat on its belly when it came to figure out a way of evaluate the result for beneficial effects and identify the new patentable algorithms from the random system disk formatting algorithm and the 99.99999% unusable white noise

 

Yes, the folly of youth

 

Patent the bastard anyway. You never know. In the US system it might stick.

[Raithe]

On the semi-related note (and yes, I know it's from a Guardian news article so pinch of salt and all..)

 

Corporate Executives test the same as commited Psychopaths

[Walsingham]

On the semi-related note (and yes, I know it's from a Guardian news article so pinch of salt and all..)

 

Corporate Executives test the same as commited Psychopaths

 

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Nepenthe]

On the semi-related note (and yes, I know it's from a Guardian news article so pinch of salt and all..)

 

Corporate Executives test the same as commited Psychopaths

I don't think it's new data, we certainly went over it in leadership & management last year, and it wasn't treated as a new revelation even then.