@\NightandtheShape/@ Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Europe was Christianized through the sword, and through pressures of economic trade. Monotheism is in no way linked to the prosperity of democratic ideals, if anything it served to hinder them. Pagans were for the most part always democratic, the althing in Iceland is an example of this. You make it sound like Westerners were christian by choice, they were never christian by choice, more than anything folk were christian out of fear. Christianity hasn't ever been responsible for anything good. I don't believe Christianity has anything to do with why democracy was embraced. Monotheism & Freedom cannot co-exist. "I'm a programmer at a games company... REET GOOD!" - Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 okay, rational discussion has left the thread, apparently. First of all, I didn't say that Monotheism led to democracy. I said, "Still, the western democracies did flourish in monotheistic cultures. Even if democracies did exist, that still doesn't take away the fact that western Christians embraced democracy in the end." That is undoubtedly true. Democracy has flourished in the west and did so before it flourished elsewhere. I don't contend that Christianity is the cause of democracy, but it can't have had an overly detrimental effect on democracy. To say that what is essentially a primative society has a democracy is only half of the truth. Loose organizations along tribal lines are "democratic." I won't argue with that. However, because each able bodied man has a say in primative societies does not make for a democracy. A democracy relies upon institutions. While you can make the argument that primative societies have such institutions, you're going to have to stretch. The nature of western democracies in which there is great concern for the enfranchisement of the majority of adult citizens does not derive from pagan values. Once again, you can make the claim, but that doesn't make it true. The spread of Christianity through Europe came as a result of many factors. To say that Europe was "Christianized through the sword" is no better than saying that Europe was converted because the message of redemption and an afterlife were appealing to the people. I won't error on the side of broad generalizations if you don't. "You make it sound like Westerners were christian by choice, they were never christian by choice, more than anything folk were christian out of fear." Rubbish. You're literally saying that people were "never christian by choice?" Never? Not once? It's amazing to see how far people will go to attack Christianity. I don't mind having a frank discussion. I really don't. I'm pretty good about admitting when the facts are against me. In this case, you're just making quick comments out of what can only be your predisposition. You say Christianity has never had a positive influence on the world. Never. Furthermore, you won't even concede that the western democracies, complete with self sustaining institutions of democracy, formed in Christian societies. Absolute rubbish. Your argument seems to be against monotheism. Does that mean you're polytheistic? I believe India serves as a good examples that polytheism is certainly alive and well in today's world. I have no bone to pick with polytheism. I do, however, have something against your claims. Mostly, however, there has to be some basis from which to build the discussion. If you won't admit to self evident truths, then there is no going forward. I will gladly allow you to keep to your clearly wrong minded and prejudicial views. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Europe was Christianized through the sword, and through pressures of economic trade. Monotheism is in no way linked to the prosperity of democratic ideals, if anything it served to hinder them. Pagans were for the most part always democratic, the althing in Iceland is an example of this. You make it sound like Westerners were christian by choice, they were never christian by choice, more than anything folk were christian out of fear. Christianity hasn't ever been responsible for anything good. I don't believe Christianity has anything to do with why democracy was embraced. Monotheism & Freedom cannot co-exist. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Couldn't have said this any better. Just look at the Southern Baptist church in the US and you can see today the attitudes that prevailed in early Christianity. "Our way or die..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 The very earliest Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism. Soon thereafter, it was persecuted in the Roman empire. Do you contend that Christians conquered Rome. Just because you have a bone to pick with Christians knocking on your door is a stupid reason to ignore the facts. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'JN Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Facts? What do Christians know about facts? It's all about your "beliefs". Go ask a racist hillbilly why he hates black people. He won't have a single fact to back it up (unless he says that he is dimwitted and narrow-minded), but he'll be sure to spout off plenty of nonsense about "the good book" or his "faith". The basic moral codes of religion have been carried over into government and society through the ages to good effect, but other than that it's just a social hinderence. How many people have been discriminated against or persecuted by people who think that they are acting on behalf of God? Christianity has never been a true proponent of tolerance or appreciation. Far from it. Almost every religion alienates those who do not follow it, with results ranging from unfortunate to simply tragic. All of them, however, are needless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 I disagree. There are events recorded in history. These events need no supernatural explanation. The Roman empire was not overcome because an army of Christians sprang out of the ground. Christianity did not spread primarily at the end of the sword. A lot of people bought into the Christian message. Whether you're a Christian and believe that this came from enlightenment or an atheist and believe that this rapid spread of Christianity came from the gullible nature of people, the fact is that Christianity spread quickly as a persecuted religion. That is, indeed, a fact. I am a Christian. I am not a racist "hillbilly." I don't know any "hillbillies" personally, but I do notice that you're quick to call someone else racist while using quite bigoted terms. I respect that many folks here are atheists. ...But if the last few arguments are meant to highlight how open minded or enlightened atheists are, then I'm glad to let folks read this thread and draw their own conclussions. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phosphor Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 But if the last few arguments are meant to highlight how open minded or enlightened atheists are, then I'm glad to let folks read this thread and draw their own conclussions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree. And I think this thread has pretty much run it's course. It'll remain here rather than being removed, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts