Religion And Ethics

[mkreku]

I've never understood why people need a religion to act "good". I'm an atheist myself because I can only see the disadvantages of religions around the world. I still believe I'm a good person with lots of sympathy, empathy and high moral grounds.

[Phosphor]

I've never understood why people need a religion to act "good". I'm an atheist myself because I can only see the disadvantages of religions around the world. I still believe I'm a good person with lots of sympathy, empathy and high moral grounds.

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You don't need a religion to be good. Religion can offer a lot more than moral guidelines, but there are a lot of religious folks who are far from good and yet proclaim themselves good (insert faith here).

There's a lot of intolerance, hatred and such amongst religious people, all who claim it's the will of their god and such. There are those who loudly proclaim their faith to one end or another. Eldar's take on it as a Christian, and my take on it as an agnostic, illustrate what I think is what the tenets of that faith truly are.

 

You don't need religion to be good, but likewise religion doesn't excuse you from being bad.

['JN]

You don't need religion to be good, but likewise religion doesn't excuse you from being bad.

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9 out of 10 altar boys can attest to that...

[Cantousent]

The thing to remember is that atheists often don't receive the same kind of ire as a different religion. A religious person might see an atheist as someone who's misguided, but they see an opposing religion as downright evil.

 

Plus, as 'JN gently indicates, moral lapses are magnified when the guilty party has built his life around preaching the good word.

 

It's funny, I thought about being a priest at one time. Who knows where I would have been in that case. I would't have been lusting after altar boys, this much is true. ...But there are many ways to fall and the path is narrow for one who professes religious convictions.

['JN]

Plus, as 'JN gently indicates, moral lapses are magnified when the guilty party has built his life around preaching the good word.

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Magnified? Let's be realistic here. Molesting someone else's kid is not acceptable behavior from anyone. The fact that they are priests doesn't make it worse than it would be for someone else, at least not in my eyes. If anything, it just makes it obvious. They spend so much time preaching to everyone out of a book that outlines basically everything as a sin, that their basic human needs are ignored. This is what happens as a result. Lovely isn't it?

[Phosphor]

It's funny, I thought about being a priest at one time.  Who knows where I would have been in that case.  I would't have been lusting after altar boys, this much is true.

 

So in other words it would have really changed your life?

 

...But there are many ways to fall and the path is narrow for one who professes religious convictions.

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I'd imagine it'd be really difficult to be a priest. You'd have to be so sure of your faith and convictions, and be able to temper that with genuine compassion and real love for the human race (*shudder*).

The position of moral authority and power involving other people's core beliefs would be a massive responsibility.

Were I religious, I wouldn't want that position.

[Cantousent]

I don't understand the view, 'JN. I'm sure you can elaborate. Is it being Catholic that makes someone commit wrongful acts or is it that the Catholic church draws people who desire to commit such acts?

 

I was born into a Catholic family.

 

...But this isn't about the horrors of what molested children faced, is it? When the scandal hit the church a few years back, I was appalled. I think any person, religious or otherwise, would have been appalled. ...But I don't hear your talking about everyone who has molested children. You bring up child molestation in a thread that has started to veer towards a discussion of religion. Clearly, the acts were appalling but I do believe the nature of the offenders is what magnifies the incident with you.

 

Well, that and the fact that it seems you have a personal vendetta against me because I had one of your threads axed. Well, 'JN, on account of my Catholicism I've had better people say worse things to me than you. So go ahead.

 

Maybe you can write a play depicting me as a homosexual. I hear you have a real talent for these sorts of things.

[Cantousent]

I'd imagine it'd be really difficult to be a priest. You'd have to be so sure of your faith and convictions, and be able to temper that with genuine compassion and real love for the human race (*shudder*).

The position of moral authority and power involving other people's core beliefs would be a massive responsibility.

Were I religious, I wouldn't want that position.

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If I weren't married, I would become a priest because of the scandals that have rocked the church in recent years. It was a terrible thing but I think it would be somewhat cowardly for me to run away from my faith because of what some bad people did while professing a shared faith. Particularly since what these people did was against the very faith they professed.

['JN]

I don't understand the view, 'JN.  I'm sure you can elaborate.  Is it being Catholic that makes someone commit wrongful acts or is it that the Catholic church draws people who desire to commit such acts?

 

I was born into a Catholic family.

 

...But this isn't about the horrors of what molested children faced, is it?  When the scandal hit the church a few years back, I was appalled.  I think any person, religious or otherwise, would have been appalled.  ...But I don't hear your talking about everyone who has molested children.  You bring up child molestation in a thread that has started to veer towards a discussion of religion.  Clearly, the acts were appalling but I do believe the nature of the offenders is what magnifies the incident with you.

 

Don't try putting a spin on this. I made a joke, hoping that you would take the bait, and you did.

 

Maybe you can write a play depicting me as a homosexual.  I hear you have a real talent for these sorts of things.

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If you want a play about homosexuals, go read the Old Testament.

[Cantousent]

once again, 'JN, you win.

[Phosphor]

Magnified? Let's be realistic here. Molesting someone else's kid is not acceptable behavior from anyone. The fact that they are priests doesn't make it worse than it would be for someone else, at least not in my eyes. If anything, it just makes it obvious. They spend so much time preaching to everyone out of a book that outlines basically everything as a sin, that their basic human needs are ignored. This is what happens as a result. Lovely isn't it?

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That's what I think Eldar means; magnifying the situation is making it more obvious. That they preach one thing and act in the exact opposite way is a magnification of the issue. Child molestation is wrong, and when you're in a position like a priest, the wrong-ness is far more obvious and apparent.

 

As for basic human needs being ignored, my impression is that the priesthood is supposed to transcend that, to have more mental fortitude, and be strengthened by their faith. It's about dedication.

Now, I disagree with preaching basic human needs as a sin; I think it's backwards and a corruption or misinterpretation of the bible. But I'm not a biblical scholar nor religious at all. It's just my impression.

['JN]

That's what I think Eldar means; magnifying the situation is making it more obvious. That they preach one thing and act in the exact opposite way is a magnification of the issue. Child molestation is wrong, and when you're in a position like a priest, the wrong-ness is far more obvious and apparent.

 

The reason for it is more obvious and apparent, that's all. If the act itself were apparent, it wouldn't be in the closet for 30 some-odd years.

 

As for basic human needs being ignored, my impression is that the priesthood is supposed to transcend that, to have more mental fortitude, and be strengthened by their faith. It's about dedication.

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Doesn't always turn out that way now does it?

[Phosphor]

Most things don't turn out as they should.

I'm not defending that approach, as I think it's misguided. Relgion is, to me, something that is for personal guidance, not a tool to tell others what to do. Unfortunately, the latter is all too common a situation and the former seemingly quite rare.

[Phosphor]

I split this off Eldar's Wish Me Luck thread, as it strikes me that such debate likely isn't conducive to granting luck, particularly when such luck is needed with a religious institution

[Cantousent]

Well, I look at it philosophically, I think the best response is that I do what my conscience dictates. I am a Roman Catholic. I profess my faith. Sometimes, my faith is attacked. Sometimes, the attack come as really nothing more than opportunity for the other person.

 

After all, I was outraged by the accusations that came to light. Still, I couldn't help but noticed that folks who were attacking the Catholic church on philosophical or theological grounds were now using the suffering of the victims as an opportunity to attack the church along a different route. That seems to be quite wrong. To use someone else's suffering for your own gain, particularly when it's doubtful the suffering means much to you personally, is clearly a bad thing.

 

...But folks who want to attack someone else's belief will find a way to attack it.

 

On the other hand, I haven't molested anyone. Of all the priests in the United States alone, the allegations have concerned a rather miniscule percentage. Does that exonerate the church? Of course not. The priests were criminal, but the bishops who actually engaged in cover-up are actually worse. They're the ones who enabled the criminal priests access to more children.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Religion is kinda how you see the world.... It doesn't make people good or bad. Is a Muslim terrorist bad because of his faith? or because of how his faith can help skew his perception? Is Islam inherantly bad etc..

 

Frankly the whole concept of organized religion offends me. I've always found monotheism offensive, be ye a Christian, Muslim, or Jew.

[Phosphor]

Religion is kinda how you see the world.... It doesn't make people good or bad. Is a Muslim terrorist bad because of his faith? or because of how his faith can help skew his perception? Is Islam inherantly bad etc..

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No, a Muslim terrorist is bad because he's been manipulated by all sorts of extreme influnces, from religious to social to personal, all of which likely intertwine with each other.

I don't believe Islam is any worse than any sect of Christianity.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Religion is kinda how you see the world.... It doesn't make people good or bad. Is a Muslim terrorist bad because of his faith? or because of how his faith can help skew his perception? Is Islam inherantly bad etc..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, a Muslim terrorist is bad because he's been manipulated by all sorts of extreme influnces, from religious to social to personal, all of which likely intertwine with each other.

I don't believe Islam is any worse than any sect of Christianity.

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That was my point.

 

Though I find it sensible to just treat these religions with the scorn they deserve.

[Judge Hades]

I do. A Christian fanatic is just as bad as a Islamic fanatic as a Judaic fanatic.

 

Personally I think the whole world would have been better off without the notion of religion.

[Cantousent]

I tend to look at folks based on their actions and demeanor. As such, I wonder how many people here scorn me for my Roman Catholicism.

 

The basic tenets of Christianity and, I believe this to be true, Islam are good tenets regardless of whether or not you believe in the basis for the religion. In other words, we can have a fundamental basis for agreement on most moral values. We can isolate those areas in which we disagree. We can come to some sort of common ground. It is my conviction that this is better than the idea that because of some Christian fanatics all Christians are evil.

 

You know, I've been around some pretty hefty intellectuals. The universities are wrought with them. Folks whose genius in literature or science is manifest by their great works. These people often have very strange viewpoints, religious or not.

 

So, heap scorn on religious fanatics. ...But scorn for me? I've been on this board for some time and I don't believe I've been fanatical about anything thus far. (well, I'm not counting the hated weighted point-buy system.) I'd rather not think that folks here might look down on me for being Catholic. On the other hand, I will bear scorn rather than turn my back on what I see as the truth.

 

Let me ask you, would you change your views if folks on message boards were as intolerant of atheists as some of you seem to be towards religion? Maybe you've been on such boards. Did you think the group attacking someone for not believing was any worse than attacking me for my belief? In the end, I can only be who I am. I am a Catholic. I was born into a Catholic family and I was raised as a Catholic. I will be a Catholic, God willing, until the time of death. If that statement deserves your scorn, then I suppose I'll have to shoulder that burden.

 

Instead, however, I'd rather think that folks would judge me based on what I am as a whole. For the most part, folks seem to like me on message boards. Why should anything change because I have one belief while you have another?

[Judge Hades]

As long as you try not to make me a Catholic or bomb a nearby Planned Parenthood then you will not get my scorn. Only fanatics get my scorn.

 

:D

[Cantousent]

As long as you don't go around murdering old women, Visc. After all, one stereo-type deserves another, doesn't it?

 

I mean, folks who bomb planned Parenthood are pretty damned rare, aren't they? Out of the millions and millions of professed Christians in the united states, how many go around bombing abortion clinics?

 

Anyhow, I have to agree with you. It is counter-intuitive to suggest that you love life so much that you'll kill someone to prove it. To use a popular phrase, what a nutcase.

[merry andrew]

Religion has probably gone the way it has because of the exploitation of faith. Faith is necessary, but only after one has thought something through as much as one can at the time. Faith is what allows us to act in the face of uncertainty (once it has been recognized); but nowadays it is what allows us to act with minimal, if any, meditation/thorough thinking.

[Child of Flame]

Eh, I'm a Christian but I prefer to say I'm an agnostic because I'm not the model Christian, nor do I do or believe much of what people say that the Bible says (even though I believe otherwise); so I'd rather say I'm an agnostic than come off as a hypocrite. <shrugs>

[Cantousent]

There's a book by Roger Zelazny that sports a character, this priest who isn't sure about his beliefs. Listening to him say the Lord's prayer was funny. Your post reminded me of that character, Servant.

 

Fear of looking stupid is what keeps a lot of academics from professing faith. On the other hand, a lot of the ones who do can be pretty agressive about it. It's kind of funny.

 

I also had a psych professor a long time ago who had a phrase on his office door.

 

It said, "I'm sorry if my karma ran over your dogma."

 

EDIT: I simply have to exile myself from my own religion thread. I'm just too preachy about the whole thing.