Extra Credits thread

[sorophx]

unless you are trying to roleplay a character in such a way that you're just making suppositions for how they should act without drawing upon any of your own personal experiences in the process (good luck with that).

oh, so that's why people kept calling me a munchkin

[Purkake]

Choice and conflict

 

Probably not what you expect.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Purkake

[Calax]

Meh, I liked that part of Mass Effect 2 a lot and wished that more games would do stuff like that.

 

My problem with that bit was that the potential consequences for either choice will probably boil down to "you get 4 geth troops at the final battle" instead of anything big or meaningful, rendering the whole choice to nothing more than a superfluous sidequest.

 

The one thing I dislike is the need to quantify the consequences as something tangible in game. I think there are merits with a choice like that, even if you never hear of the results of the decision. In fact, putting forth some sort of outcome runs the risk of indicating what is the "right" or "wrong" choice for that situation. Something that I think is best avoided.

They need to indicate SOMEWHERE that your choices had an effect. Maybe not a direct connection to the gameplay, but perhaps later you hear a news report about the geth pulling back or the civil war heating up.

[Niten_Ryu]

Choice and conflict

 

Probably not what you expect.

 

re: calculations masked as incomparables

 

I'm not sure that even in games it's that simple. Because for example in WoW, there's probably worlds best game and combat mechanic designers and worlds most active theorycrafters breaking down the systems and still you often get incomplite answer for the simple question - What's the best build.

 

Reminds me of scientific community before it accepted the quantium mechanics and advanced mathematics like attractors. They all belived that it was a clockwork universe and everything could be calculated if we'd just get enough info. We'd know the future and the past. But that's not how real world works.

 

Obvious difference is that developers, if they have enough time and resources, do know everything that happen in their game. But since time and resources are limited and teams are huge, they might miss even the most visible bugs or design flaws.

 

So there are cookie cutter builds. But ultimately those were build for the hardcore player and newbie might miss great deal of potetial. Rogue / Warrior skills rotation, gear selection, mob type, encounter type, solo, 5 man group or 10-25 man raid ect ect. There are many variables to say - Yes, that's a best build for you.

[Calax]

Actually Ryu, for the most part they take that into consideration. Sometimes near the end of a raiding tier/section, they'll pop up with "use this build if you're below these markers" and "use this build when above same markers" because those markers make other stats useful. But in general the "cookie cutter" builds are acknowledged as the best build for just about anything. Ok, maybe not for running around solo and trying to farm yourself retarded, but they're the best build for PvE situations for the particular spec you've chosen for your character.

 

But realize that this concept also applies to the previously mentioned ME quest. If they hadn't added in the Paragon/Renegade points then that choice would have been much more... interesting rather than just "I need **** points" or "I need happy points".

[Purkake]

If there's no benefit to staying neutral on the screw the rules/by the book scale you might just as well choose one or the other on character generation. There really should be drawbacks on the extremes and benefits for being moderate

[Thorton_AP]

They need to indicate SOMEWHERE that your choices had an effect. Maybe not a direct connection to the gameplay, but perhaps later you hear a news report about the geth pulling back or the civil war heating up.

 

I don't feel that need.

 

If a game has made me genuinely put serious thought into a decision, that itself is enough of a reward for me and puts itself in a unique place that 99% of games never reach. I never needed an answer for "What can change the nature of a man?"

[Purkake]

Something for all the RPG people: Non-combat gaming.

 

*Also includes a stealth diss at New Vegas.

[Orogun01]

Something for all the RPG people: Non-combat gaming.

 

*Also includes a stealth diss at New Vegas.

Would had enjoyed more if they put forth more examples of games with non-combat mechanics. Just of the top of my head: Shin Megami Tensei:Persona

[Purkake]

I guess they didn't have the 200h necessary to research Persona

[Orogun01]

I guess they didn't have the 200h necessary to research Persona

I don't know what you are talking about, I finished the game in 125 hours.

[sorophx]

wow, New Vegas hasn't lived up to it's predecessor? what are they smoking?

 

that one line said it all, they can talk on game design all they want, be as reasonable as they can. but this line will always be reminding me of their incompetence.

[Calax]

I guess they didn't have the 200h necessary to research Persona

Actually, look at the sexuality vid... they specifically cite two characters from persona 4 and dig into one of them.

 

And Soph, IIRC they didn't define HOW new vegas disappointed. Heck, it could have been a disappointment in sales, or the horrific state of bugs that it shipped with.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Calax

[Purkake]

wow, New Vegas hasn't lived up to it's predecessor? what are they smoking?

 

that one line said it all, they can talk on game design all they want, be as reasonable as they can. but this line will always be reminding me of their incompetence.

Just chill out and imagine they're talking about Fallout 1/2.

 

Good point, Calax. I guess they really wanted to talk about their web-based menu-driven RPG...

[Calax]

Well, Vegas kinda is part of their problem with the industry. It's conversation system is just a check, and it's lockpick and hacking systems aren't nearly as in depth as the combat system. The reason they used their example (from what I can see anyway) is because EVERYTHING is as complicated and deep as the combat system, rather than getting shallower the further you get from combat.

[Thorton_AP]

Piracy!

 

Dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUN.

[Orogun01]

There be a ****storm a'brewing.

[taviow]

Amnesia and Story Structure

 

I've gotta say this is an infuriating one.

 

Because holy ****, it's like he didn't even care enough about New Vegas to PAY ATTENTION or to LOOK FOR ANSWERS.

 

Nevermind that what happened before he/she got shot in the head is revealed throughout the game, and that the point of the blank slate was that you'd get to develop the character yourself. Anyone who PLAYED THE GAME knows that there's several instances throughout it in which you can determine things about your character's past through dialogue options.

 

Not to mention, part of the point was also making the introduction as quick as possible for people who are interested in making several playthroughs. Also as far as I know, NV is not even a proper example for talking about amnesia. Temporary disorientation at best, not amnesia.

 

Maybe he should think about the point of NOT SHOVING BACKSTORY UP THE CHARACTER'S ASS and talk about it next week.

Edited January 27, 2011 by taviow

[sorophx]

a couple of videos back they talk about NV being inferior to FO3, so you shouldn't be surprised these people like games for other reasons apparently.

[Calax]

Eh, that's personal preference of the Designer and his partners in crime.

 

Some people did consider it worse than FO:3, they have made Several good points in the past.

[taviow]

What annoys me the most is that he bashes NV for random stuff, which is sometimes not even applicable, such as the backstory thing. I'm ok with people preferring a developed PC rather than a blank slate, but he makes it painfully clear that he barely played the game and didn't even seem to care to seek information about what happened to him (which the game provides).

 

Not to mention the amnesia thing. "LOOK HERE AT NEW VEGAS, AMNESIA BLAH BLAHHHHHASNFKJ,ML CXM".

 

HELLO DUDE. NEW VEGAS IS NOT AN AMNESIA STORY.

 

So yeah.

[Orogun01]

Funny enough, this week I went through the Hero's Journey on my game developing class. Kind of a Deja Vu to see it pop out now.

 

PS. they should really try to downplay their own bias. Tearing NV an new one and promoting a crappy online game just makes them the hipster equivalent of the gaming community.

[Purkake]

The opposite would make them shills, so try to look on the bright side.

 

 

Not that this episode was particularly good or coherent.

 

[Thorton_AP]

How many references to the past life were in New Vegas?

 

I liked New Vegas more than FO3, but apparently not for any of the backstory parts (I in part came to check out this thread because I was looking forward to some raging about the guy liking FO3's story structure more than FONV hahaha)

[Thorton_AP]

Uh oh, those Extra Credits guys talking about why Health Regen can be a good thing (as well as a bad thing). Among other things of course.

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/vie...Designer-Part-1