Cool guns

[Walsingham]

And this one just looks like it wont

http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/?p=161

 

Did that cooking off problem only happen on full auto? Because the British army basically only uses single shot anyway, except for urban fighting. I know I'd sure as hell prefer to carry caseless ammo.

 

Thinks: I wonder if Afghan will eventually have an entire geological strata comprised entirely of brass shell casings?

[Gorgon]

What do the cases *do*. Hold the explosive charge ?.

[Gorgon]

Don't know much about the gun other than that it had an excellent crit range in Fallout 2.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Kriss

 

I think the design is a bit too recent to put full trust in it no?

 

The Kriss seems to be like the Five-Seven pistol. I love it, its extremely well made - but it costs an arm and a leg (not to mention the FS uses expensive and rare ammo). My grandad's sixty year old trophy VIS 35 does the same job for a fraction of the cost.

From my admittedly small knowledge of firearms (my dad wrote a book on the subject, I just picked up a little from him over the years) the Kriss seems like a bodyguards/police weapon that will see limited use. It will also have to compete with the likes of H&K MP5 which more or less do the same thing but are much more popular. And if my knowledge of US laws is correct the Kriss, like all new full auto guns will be available only to military and police. Which will mean that only the police will end up using it and so far as I know police purchases aren't enough to make a new gun really sell well (the Five-Seven had this issue until it was released in a civilian version).

 

In say a real eg: middle east combat area like Iraq or Afghanistan one of the shorter and concealable AK types would make much more sense given the abundance of ammo and the proven durability. However, if you were a nut for personal protection and living in a western country where maintenance and money aren't an issue then I suppose, theoretically, it would be a good purchase.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I know its not specifically on topic but if there is one weapon that I'd like to have its the SIG 550

 

 

In terms of quality of manufacture and many other characteristics its reputedly the best assault rifle ever made. Its also one of the most expensive ones, if not the most expensive.

[Orogun01]

Kriss

 

I think the design is a bit too recent to put full trust in it no?

 

The Kriss seems to be like the Five-Seven pistol. I love it, its extremely well made - but it costs an arm and a leg (not to mention the FS uses expensive and rare ammo). My grandad's sixty year old trophy VIS 35 does the same job for a fraction of the cost.

From my admittedly small knowledge of firearms (my dad wrote a book on the subject, I just picked up a little from him over the years) the Kriss seems like a bodyguards/police weapon that will see limited use. It will also have to compete with the likes of H&K MP5 which more or less do the same thing but are much more popular. And if my knowledge of US laws is correct the Kriss, like all new full auto guns will be available only to military and police. Which will mean that only the police will end up using it and so far as I know police purchases aren't enough to make a new gun really sell well (the Five-Seven had this issue until it was released in a civilian version).

 

In say a real eg: middle east combat area like Iraq or Afghanistan one of the shorter and concealable AK types would make much more sense given the abundance of ammo and the proven durability. However, if you were a nut for personal protection and living in a western country where maintenance and money aren't an issue then I suppose, theoretically, it would be a good purchase.

They will probably release a semi-automatic civilian version (AR-15 style) nothing that can't be worked around and then onto the zombie apocalypse The Mayans predicted it!

 

As to Vector vs. MP5; the Vector does have some pros over the MP5. More compact and easy to carry; it uses the 45. ACP ammo, so more stopping power.

[Walsingham]

In say a real eg: middle east combat area like Iraq or Afghanistan one of the shorter and concealable AK types would make much more sense given the abundance of ammo and the proven durability. However, if you were a nut for personal protection and living in a western country where maintenance and money aren't an issue then I suppose, theoretically, it would be a good purchase.

 

Precisely. Sure you can bury an AKM in sand, dig it up and fire it, but who the hell would do that on purpose besides a terrorist? If i were going to own a gun, and I'm unlikely to while I live in the UK, it would be either a sawnoff shotgun for cost or this SMG for sheer engineering coolness. I just like good engineering. Plus I have no issues with maintaining precision kit. I found cleaning the SA80 quite relaxing. Like brushing your teeth.

[RPGmasterBoo]

They will probably release a semi-automatic civilian version (AR-15 style) nothing that can't be worked around and then onto the zombie apocalypse The Mayans predicted it!

 

As to Vector vs. MP5; the Vector does have some pros over the MP5. More compact and easy to carry; it uses the 45. ACP ammo, so more stopping power.

 

 

I wasn't specifically comparing them as products, just the problem of exchanging a pile of perfectly well working MP5's that your spec ops are used to using, for a new and yet unproven weapon.

 

It might be actually be a far better weapon - just these habits change slowly, if at all. And well maintained guns last a long time.

 

Precisely. Sure you can bury an AKM in sand, dig it up and fire it, but who the hell would do that on purpose besides a terrorist? If i were going to own a gun, and I'm unlikely to while I live in the UK, it would be either a sawnoff shotgun for cost or this SMG for sheer engineering coolness. I just like good engineering. Plus I have no issues with maintaining precision kit. I found cleaning the SA80 quite relaxing. Like brushing your teeth.

 

May I ask why a sawn off shotgun of all things? The recoil could hurt like hell and make the weapon harder to handle. Why not just a fine handgun?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Precisely. Sure you can bury an AKM in sand, dig it up and fire it, but who the hell would do that on purpose besides a terrorist? If i were going to own a gun, and I'm unlikely to while I live in the UK, it would be either a sawnoff shotgun for cost or this SMG for sheer engineering coolness. I just like good engineering. Plus I have no issues with maintaining precision kit. I found cleaning the SA80 quite relaxing. Like brushing your teeth.

 

I've always been curious why the SA80 has such a poor reputation. Of all the more popular assault rifles coming from major countries it has been the most criticized weapon I know of.

[213374U]

Precisely. Sure you can bury an AKM in sand, dig it up and fire it, but who the hell would do that on purpose besides a terrorist? If i were going to own a gun, and I'm unlikely to while I live in the UK, it would be either a sawnoff shotgun for cost or this SMG for sheer engineering coolness. I just like good engineering. Plus I have no issues with maintaining precision kit. I found cleaning the SA80 quite relaxing. Like brushing your teeth.

Interesting.

 

Now, let me tell you about these runaway MG3s we used to keep clean as a whistle...

[Orogun01]

They will probably release a semi-automatic civilian version (AR-15 style) nothing that can't be worked around and then onto the zombie apocalypse The Mayans predicted it!

 

As to Vector vs. MP5; the Vector does have some pros over the MP5. More compact and easy to carry; it uses the 45. ACP ammo, so more stopping power.

 

 

I wasn't specifically comparing them as products, just the problem of exchanging a pile of perfectly well working MP5's that your spec ops are used to using, for a new and yet unproven weapon.

 

It might be actually be a far better weapon - just these habits change slowly, if at all. And well maintained guns last a long time.

 

True, but the US army is looking for a change; just look at the HK 416 or the XM18. Plus special ops are irregular groups they could deploy some Vectors along MP5s. As for the MP5's future; SWAT still needs them

[cronicler]

(Disclaimer: Most of my knowledge is book learned so to speak as I haven't even seen a SA80 here let alone handle.)

Boo: If you look at it's stats in a category basis, it is not so bad, however it has a lot of tiny things that add up to irritation and hate. Also, the rifle had a pretty good overhaul after first gulf war as it's problems become public knowledge

 

1- Bullpup design. There is a group of people who just don't like it because of this.

2- Bad Bullpup design. Compared to an AUG (which I usually think as the base for comparison), SA80 is the committe designed, lowest bidder cousin.

It isn't immidiately apparent but there are a lot of details that makes SA80 hard to operate. For example the magazine reciever is not angled so it is harder to change magazines in some positions, No frontal grip, some ergonomical problems. It is also armory dependant if you need to service it (left handed shooter, chamber problems)

3- Over Engineered and Crude at the same time.

I know this sounds weird but the original gun had very little tolerance between moving parts which needed a lot of lubrication and the parts were generally stamped (which isn't a bad thing by itself but decreased the already low tolerances more)

 

In the end, It was a gun that worked but was temperemental. The main blackmark however was Steyr AUG (and later Tavor Tar-21 too) as AUG was about 7 years older, could do a lot of things without needing an armorer, more reliable and easier to use and to make it worse, you could even deploy it as a LMG or Carbine.

 

 

 

It wasn't a bad gun. It was just worse than its rivals (FAMAS, Steyr AUG, HK G36, AK 74, AKM)

[Walsingham]

The current rifle is the SA80 mk 2, and has a number of differences to the original. They range from different plastic on the grips which won't melt when insect repellent is applied to it, to a guard on the magazine ejection button, and alterations to the gas parts. The mk2 is - so I'm told - an immense improvement.

 

Plus points are that it's light, VERY easy to carry balance wise, it's short for CQB, and it's well understood now. It is accurate. On the down side it can still be temperamental if mistreated, it rusts easily, and it can't be used by left handed people unless they want to lose an eye.

 

I don't know anyone who objects to bullpups, but that may be coincidence.

 

~~~

 

As for the other questions:

 

1. People who know such things first hand have told me that if you are attacked unexpectedly you get the complete shakes and don't know where you are being fired on from. I believe them. They both recommend the sawn off because it lets you suppress all points of the compass while you get your bearings. Clouds of buckshot give your assailant something to think about other than shooting straight. Your job then is to run away smartish.

 

2. If you are not being attacked and are attacking someone else then good luck to you, but it's not something I'm likely to be doing for fun.

[Gorgon]

Well a sawn off only has two helpings of buckshot. Once they are off both you and the imaginary assailant are acutely aware that you are out.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Well if we're considering shotguns there's always the

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12

 

 

Its essentially and AK converted into a combat shotgun. Cheap and plentiful. And wicked.

 

@Cronicler: thanks for the input. Forgot completely about the Tavor. It looks intimidating but I wonder how it performs.

 

@Walsingham: ok, I was just curious. After all you're the man with the combat experience, the rest of us are armchair generals

Edited March 14, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Walsingham]

Well if we're considering shotguns there's always the

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12

 

 

Its essentially and AK converted into a combat shotgun. Cheap and plentiful. And wicked.

 

@Cronicler: thanks for the input. Forgot completely about the Tavor. It looks intimidating but I wonder how it performs.

 

@Walsingham: ok, I was just curious. After all you're the man with the combat experience, the rest of us are armchair generals

 

I HAVE been shot at, but not in combat. I do however, make the most remarkable acquaintances.

[cronicler]

Tavor is a shameless rip from AUG. They basically took an AUG, applied ergonomic improvements, even lighter but still a bit more rugged materials and Uzi based high cycle rated, rugged firing mechanism (not that AUG's was bad mind you. If I am not mistaken it was mainly for cutting costs by using home patents).

 

It is not as quick to service as AUG, but on most of other aspects, it is a bit better.

 

 

Note: I am not talking about accuracy or stopping power as most assault rifles are in the same range for the first and the second is based on the caliber and the load, not the individual gun.

 

 

 

 

Gorgon: There are other models. The side by side barrel shotguns are not the only option for sawed offs.

[Gorgon]

They call those pump action don't they. A sawed off is literally a hunting shot rifle with the barrel cut down.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Gorgon

[Aram]

A sawn-off is anything a saw has been taken to to shorten it to an illegal length.

 

For no reason at all here's two shotguns I own.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Aram

[Walsingham]

Don't get me wrong. I like the Aug. Easiest thing I've ever shot with, chambered to 9mm parabellum.

[cronicler]

I know I am bending the rules here (hell I'm trampling and then jumping up and down on it's carcass) but as this (more precisely the concept that this one presents) is my favorite;

 

More precisely;

 

 

 

Ergonomically th original G-11 was very very poorly designed. Coupled with its idiotic magazine placement and the bullet cook off problems, it is a dead weapon.

 

However, there are 2 relatively new technologies on the gun technology.

The first one is the helical magazine systems, used by Calico and Bizon, this system allows a more practical positioning for the huge magazines.

 

Second one is what I call "the cool chamber". This is the same concept used in HK416, which stops nearly all of the heat transfer to the firing chamber, eliminating the weakest part of the caseless ammo, the cook-off.

 

(Edit: The original G-11 also had a recoil dampening system that produced a similar result to Walshingam's baby so I didn't seperately include it in the list)

 

 

I think a weapon that incorporates both of these in an ergonomic bullpup sheath would be "the pinnacle" in chemichal powered rifles.

Edited March 15, 2010 by cronicler

[Walsingham]

From memory I think the G11 had a rotating bolt which meant that the rounds could be fed in at tremendous speed. It could fire three round bursts so that the last round left the barrel before the shock recoil of the first was felt.