Fallout: New Vegas

[Stephen Amber]

The people I knew who went into Fallout cold all report not knowing at the outset how absolutely crucial Small Guns is.

 

Guns & ammo magz could be acquired frequently enough to alleviate this.

[Wombat]

I generally agree, but there is a corresponding benefit to Bethesda's approach-- it mitigates concerns about blindsiding a player with unexpectedly poor skill balance, which is something the first two Fallouts did a lot of. If you started your first character in Fallout with tags in Gambling, Outdoorsman, and Energy Weapons, you'd probably be quitting in frustration within a few hours. F3's approach to allow more of the important decision-making to take place after the player has experienced some of the game makes the game more accessable to those without meta-knowledge of the challenges the game offers.

 

Now, the best way to solve this would be to have better skill balance. But skill balance is never going to be perfect, and allowing more flexibility to shift the priorities in one's character build in-game does have its benefits. (Although Bethesda almost certainly went too far in letting characters max way too many skills.)

Indeed, the characterizing different game-experiences and balancing the content of these experiences must be time-consuming, which is probably why Bethesda went for more generic route. Again, to my eyes, it is the matter of balancing. As long as FONV team are able to make combat/stealth/speech paths unique each other without making the players feel "unfair", Personally, I don't mind how they design the details.

 

The only way to figure it out is to tag and/or advance skills for several hours and realize (maybe) that the game doesn't really support the use of those skills.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for players to expect that a game's content is going to actually support individual skills throughout the game (unless explicitly stated otherwise).

Seriously, do we need a designer to say this? For NWN, I even suggested graying out some skills in character-making depending on the content of campaigns for which the characters are made. In PnP RPGs, human masters can deal with the balance by comparing their campaigns with the stats of the player characters but the story is different in PC campaigns where the content is fixed (Remember the pickpocket skill in Icewind Dale series?). And the story was about D&D class system, where skills are much less important.

 

Honestly, I couldn't follow the discussion about the gimping, which is why I'm trying to interpret it as discussions about pacing/balanced characterizations.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Especially when those skills have been amalgamated and dumbed down... like someone wanting to lump together all the guns skills into one skill or something.

The number of skills shouldn't matter from a content perspective. Whether a game has five skills or twenty, designers should either support those skills (roughly) equally or let the player know what the relative imbalance is.

[Stephen Amber]

or let the player know what the relative imbalance is.

 

Which is basically just spoilers... You won't see an energy weapon til New Reno, so don't bother maxing that skill early. Dole out such weapons earlier, like in Fallout3, and the scarcity/allure of such is impacted. I liked the optional skill boosting methods seen previously... like the nomad who can teach you unarmed combat tricks, or the magazines you can invest in or search for.

[Oner]

When I first played FO 2, I figured I won't get an energy weapon immediately thrown at me (didn't keep me from tagging it anyway ).

I mean seriously, energy weapons. Little Uzi vs plasma gun, of course you don't get it at the start.

Or they give you one with little ammo, then it would've been useless, weighting you down for IRL days because it's too awesome to sell.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The point in a game where a type of weapon is introduced is not equivalent to its scarcity. Fallout 1/2 easily could have had low-, mid-, and high-power energy weapons appear throughout the game but be a step more powerful/less common overall. No spoilers required. Fallout 1: "Uncommon even before the Great War, Energy Weapons were renowned for their power." Fallout 2: "Though the deeds of the Chosen One spread many powerful Energy Weapons into the wasteland, they are still uncommon compared to Small Guns."

 

This sets the player's expectations properly: invest in this skill to use more powerful, less common weapons.

[Slowtrain]

Uncommon is irrelevant though, if the weapon can never be lost or made useless. Once you have one, the degree of scarcity no longer matters.

 

Ammo is more relevant in regards to scarcity, and in general a better game balancer than the weapon itself.

 

One of the reasons why weightless ammo is so stupid: it eliminates one potential way to balance weapons.

 

I'll also point out, relative to the general convo, that Fallout 3 was much more poorly balanced than either Fallout 1/2. The only super out of whack balance issue in Fallout 1/2 was the gifted trait, which simply needed a lot more penalties to it.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's not irrelevant, since people who use that weapon will also have ammo for that weapon (or should, anyway). If you continuously fight people using 10mm Pistols when you're relying on a Laser Pistol, you either have to conserve your SECs or switch over to a different weapon.

[Nemo0071]

I mean seriously, energy weapons. Little Uzi vs plasma gun, of course you don't get it at the start.

Yeah, I figured it out as well, even the first time I was playing Fallout 2 (I played it before 1, and that was even the first RPG I played, btw) I just sorta knew energy weapons would be "wow, dude, energy weapons" and therefore not available from the get-go. I didn't even tag it, I knew it was a job for after half-game.

 

And yes, FO 1&2 did have a good balance and feel overall, except for the occasional "less useful" skill (not worth tagging, some not even worth investing in). Bethesda (I think) tried to address these balance issues (you might call them "unfairness among skills") by trimming the number of available skills (lowering them to a mere 13) but making them more worth your time / skill points. But while they're at it, they broke energy weapons. They made 'em expensive "pew pew" toys in the hands of laymen, visual effects and all, and made them available pretty much everywhere... The same thing with Big Guns. They were "big" in size, weight & numbers, and nothing else.

 

I really hope Obs devs will be the ones to get it right this time.

[Slowtrain]

It's not irrelevant, since people who use that weapon will also have ammo for that weapon (or should, anyway). If you continuously fight people using 10mm Pistols when you're relying on a Laser Pistol, you either have to conserve your SECs or switch over to a different weapon.

 

 

hmm.

 

 

Once a pc has a laser pistol though, they will always have it. (Unless they choose to leave it behind or sell it, of course). So regardless of how uncommon laser pistols are (vs. say 10mm pistols), once acquired, rarity of the weapon ceases to be a balancing factor.

 

Ammuniton rarity, otoh, will always be a balancing factor, since no matter how powerful the weapon, without ammo, it's just a club or a walking stick.

 

That's my only point really. That actual game balance for powerful weapons is more dependent on availability of ammo than the availability of the weapon itself.

 

 

The exception being a game like STALKER where weapons will degrade with use and cannot be repaired. In which case the rarity of a weapon is much more of a balance factor since once you find a powerful weapon, if you use it, the weapon will eventually get "used up" and can only be replaced by finding another weapon of the same type. Which is a fairly uncommon gameplay mechanic since it tends to make gamers angry. Though, I must say I prefer it personally.

[Oner]

It's not irrelevant, since people who use that weapon will also have ammo for that weapon (or should, anyway). If you continuously fight people using 10mm Pistols when you're relying on a Laser Pistol, you either have to conserve your SECs or switch over to a different weapon.

Ammuniton rarity, otoh, will always be a balancing factor, since no matter how powerful the weapon, without ammo, it's just a club or a walking stick.

 

That's my only point really. That actual game balance for powerful weapons is more dependent on availability of ammo than the availability of the weapon itself.

That's what Josh said too.

[Wombat]

It's not irrelevant, since people who use that weapon will also have ammo for that weapon (or should, anyway). If you continuously fight people using 10mm Pistols when you're relying on a Laser Pistol, you either have to conserve your SECs or switch over to a different weapon.

Ammuniton rarity, otoh, will always be a balancing factor, since no matter how powerful the weapon, without ammo, it's just a club or a walking stick.

 

That's my only point really. That actual game balance for powerful weapons is more dependent on availability of ammo than the availability of the weapon itself.

That's what Josh said too.

Yea...logic here is, since energy weapons use totally different "ammo" from conventional firearms, if weapons themselves are scarce, their "ammo" should be so as well.

 

And yes, FO 1&2 did have a good balance and feel overall, except for the occasional "less useful" skill (not worth tagging, some not even worth investing in). Bethesda (I think) tried to address these balance issues (you might call them "unfairness among skills") by trimming the number of available skills (lowering them to a mere 13) but making them more worth your time / skill points. But while they're at it, they broke energy weapons. They made 'em expensive "pew pew" toys in the hands of laymen, visual effects and all, and made them available pretty much everywhere... The same thing with Big Guns. They were "big" in size, weight & numbers, and nothing else.

 

I really hope Obs devs will be the ones to get it right this time.

Now I remember* it, for Van Buren, the designers seemed to be trying to make energy weapons require both weapon and science skills, doubling the skill points, which justifies the power to some extent. So, in my Vietnam War allegory, I guess the conventional firearms would be AK-47 while M-something (16?) would be energy weapons.

 

The exception being a game like STALKER where weapons will degrade with use and cannot be repaired. In which case the rarity of a weapon is much more of a balance factor since once you find a powerful weapon, if you use it, the weapon will eventually get "used up" and can only be replaced by finding another weapon of the same type. Which is a fairly uncommon gameplay mechanic since it tends to make gamers angry. Though, I must say I prefer it personally.

I believe I've written this but, different from S.T.A.L.K.E.R., FO series are RPGs. As long as you invest on a proper skill, you'd be able to repair them. If your character doesn't have it, he needs to ask NPCs for the task probably with cost. Repeating myself is rather pointless, I guess, though.

 

* J. E. Sawyer showed a rough sketch on skill designs. I cannot remember every single detail of it but I personally fond the design decent while martial arts skill did seem to be too effective in a world where guns are dominant. BTW, IIRC, in an interview about Alpha Protocol, the designers seem to make martial arts skill "cheaper" to acquire since it it is

.

[Gorgon]

Weapons and suits can be repaired in the Stalker (insert .....) series just only by the NPCs who can upgrade your gear, or shops for Stalker #1 (sell the item and then buy it back fully repaired) and costs reflect the full price of the item. So, if you have an exoskeleton suit thats 22% damaged you would be quite unlikely to afford the repair cost until very late in the game.

 

Certain uber weapons like the RPG uses ammo that is so rare that it's basically a 'use once' weapon.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Gorgon

[Slowtrain]

The exception being a game like STALKER where weapons will degrade with use and cannot be repaired. In which case the rarity of a weapon is much more of a balance factor since once you find a powerful weapon, if you use it, the weapon will eventually get "used up" and can only be replaced by finding another weapon of the same type. Which is a fairly uncommon gameplay mechanic since it tends to make gamers angry. Though, I must say I prefer it personally.

I believe I've written this but, different from S.T.A.L.K.E.R., FO series are RPGs. As long as you invest on a proper skill, you'd be able to repair them. If your character doesn't have it, he needs to ask NPCs for the task probably with cost. Repeating myself is rather pointless, I guess, though.

 

 

*shrugs*

 

I wasn't saying Fallout should be like STALKER. I was merely using STALKER as an example of a game in which weapon rarity is a balancing factor. In Fallout 3 weapon rarity is not a balancing factor.

 

Both games have their problems.

[Stephen Amber]

Yeah, I figured it out as well, even the first time I was playing Fallout 2 (I played it before 1, and that was even the first RPG I played, btw) I just sorta knew energy weapons would be "wow, dude, energy weapons" and therefore not available from the get-go. I didn't even tag it, I knew it was a job for after half-game.

 

And yes, FO 1&2 did have a good balance and feel overall, except for the occasional "less useful" skill (not worth tagging, some not even worth investing in). Bethesda (I think) tried to address these balance issues (you might call them "unfairness among skills") by trimming the number of available skills (lowering them to a mere 13) but making them more worth your time / skill points. But while they're at it, they broke energy weapons. They made 'em expensive "pew pew" toys in the hands of laymen, visual effects and all, and made them available pretty much everywhere... The same thing with Big Guns. They were "big" in size, weight & numbers, and nothing else.

 

I really hope Obs devs will be the ones to get it right this time.

 

I'd prefer the first 1/4 or so of a post apoc rpg to be devoid of guns altogether. Like in Road Warrior, where it was all pretty much crossbows, knifes, head butts and such til Lord Humongous takes that scoped pistol out of it's case like it was a holy relic. Max has his shotgun, of course, but no ammo for it.... The sticks 'n stones level of combat Einstein talked about.

 

I agree the mid way point is the right time to start introducing energy weapons and big guns, though I"d not make it possible to scavenge the things in the aftermath of a caravan run battle, as in F2. It would be cool if initially your laser was broken, in separate pieces or something, with maybe a combo of science & repair skills to fix it. That or find someone that can repair it for a big cap expense...

 

Are the whizz bang console kiddies going to have patience for any of this? Probably not. And that's our real problem...

[Stephen Amber]

The exception being a game like STALKER where weapons will degrade with use and cannot be repaired. In which case the rarity of a weapon is much more of a balance factor since once you find a powerful weapon, if you use it, the weapon will eventually get "used up" and can only be replaced by finding another weapon of the same type. Which is a fairly uncommon gameplay mechanic since it tends to make gamers angry. Though, I must say I prefer it personally.

 

System Shock 2 did something like this as well. Sort of a neat mechanic if a bit nonsensical. You should be able fire a double barrelled shotgun, for instance, hundreds of times without anything happening to it.

[Majek]

That like saying you could go in a museum, pick a up a musket and be able to fire it 100 times with it without anything happening to it.

[Oner]

That like saying you could go in a museum, pick a up a musket and be able to fire it 100 times with it without anything happening to it.

Lincoln rifle? : x

 

Are the whizz bang console kiddies going to have patience for any of this? Probably not. And that's our real problem...

FO 3 had player-made weapons you know. Edited April 18, 2010 by Oner

[Stephen Amber]

?

 

Unless all the weapons in stalker have been sitting around unused for hundreds of years that analogy makes no sense.

 

As long as a fire arm is taken care of(kept out of the elements, oiled and such) it should work. Unless your talking about old french WWI guns... hah

[Nemo0071]

I'd prefer the first 1/4 or so of a post apoc rpg to be devoid of guns altogether. Like in Road Warrior, where it was all pretty much crossbows, knifes, head butts and such til Lord Humongous takes that scoped pistol out of it's case like it was a holy relic. Max has his shotgun, of course, but no ammo for it.... The sticks 'n stones level of combat Einstein talked about.

Nah... Maybe in a scenario like FO2 where you start in a tribal village (spears only), but even then you could get a gun at the first "civilized" village. In FO1 and FO3 you even left the vault with a gun, which is the sensible thing to do, vaults being isolated and all. As for the others, people have been scavenging for, what, hundred-something years? There should be usable (some even in pretty good shape) guns out there.

 

But of course, because equipment didn't deteriorate in FO1&2, this wasn't a balance issue. They simply placed the gear around in a scale of "everyone's sidearm" to "once in a lifetime". Problem solved, everyone happy. When Beth introduced damage/condition and repair for equipment, they sort of had to make loot plentiful. That's the reason I recommended (did I?) a system that includes equipment repair with scrap metal / spare parts / random junk.

 

 

I agree the mid way point is the right time to start introducing energy weapons and big guns, though I"d not make it possible to scavenge the things in the aftermath of a caravan run battle, as in F2. It would be cool if initially your laser was broken, in separate pieces or something, with maybe a combo of science & repair skills to fix it. That or find someone that can repair it for a big cap expense...

See above for repair.

 

The thing about science & repair combo for the more hi-tech gear... That would definitely be interesting, but I guess it would require a whole new repair system so I wouldn't hold my breath to see it in NV.

 

 

Are the whizz bang console kiddies going to have patience for any of this? Probably not. And that's our real problem...

Well, console kiddie or not, if they like playing RPGs, they should be ready for the consequences, right?

[Oner]

consequences

*drinks*

[mkreku]

That like saying you could go in a museum, pick a up a musket and be able to fire it 100 times with it without anything happening to it.

Why couldn't you? Steel does not age.

[Moose]

er...

[Gorth]

Thread getting a bit long, so I split the last part of the discussion to a new thread. More fallout here