Dragon Age discussion

[Stephen Amber]

Nope. Not overpwoered. powered just right. Mages should be wickedly awesome. That's why it's called magic. This is soemthing D&D got right, and since the goal for DA combat to be like D&D, it's the way it should be.

 

Again. It's pnp legacy where arch-magi were supposed to be relatively rare and things like spell components would force a bit of restraint. It would be something like verbal, somatic, and 1,000 gold worth gems which go poof upon completion. In all of crpg history has any game attempted to get this right? Of course not... save from a few nwn/nwn2 persistent worlds. But those don't count.

[Volourn]

And? What exactly are you trying to say? Heck, I say add material components. *shrug*

 

If anything aboutt he mage is over/udner powered it's the shapeshifting specialization. What a waste of soemthing otherwise cool.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Volourn

[Stephen Amber]

Yes, lets all go gather mushrooms out in the woods...

[Volourn]

Right. Because, material components are all about that. Come on.

[Gromnir]

I wouldn't exactly call it fun that my PC kills all the enemies before they lift a finger but okay. I wouldn't trade it for struggling with fighters and rogues though.

 

is yet another example of how Gromnir were saying that the tactics o' da were overrated somewhat 'cause o' lack o' familiarity with rules. how many folk stumbled into storm o' the century their first time through game? need spell might, which gots two o' the most useless prerequisite spells in the game: mana drain and mana cleanse. spell might itself is largely a waste unless you use in combination with animate dead or blizzard + tempest. mana clash, on the other hand, is a very effective mage killer, but for most players it is a hard sell considering the largely ineffectual prereqs.

 

am also recalling a whole bunch o' battles where the storm kinda spells were largely ineffectual-- flemmeth being the one boss battle exception. dunno if we would voluntarily build a mage as does boo, particularly playing nightmare, but we doubt most first-time players genuine pick the right spells for storm simply by reading in-game descriptions. as with the ie games, a large part of difficulty or ease is simply knowing which spells, equipment combinations, and character builds is the most efficacious. line between strategy and tactics is always a blurry one (and sometimes pointless) but for Gromnir at least, a second playthrough o' da were made easy not 'cause we knew what challenges lay ahead, but rather 'cause the mechanics o' da were less obscure with the benefit o' +50 hours o' trial and error.

 

Gromnir's da guide: how to breeze through da on nightmare without even trying

 

step 1) download the respec mod

 

am not certain why the developers likes to build terrible joinable npcs, but wynne's 8-9 levels o' crap is easily fixable with the respec mod. a pc 2h warrior is an effective glass cannon, but npcs don't have the stats or abilities to be effective as such til late in game. with the benefits of respec, sten is a very effective sword and board or dual wielding warrior. wanna make the french chick or the poncey elf useful as rogues? respec.

 

step 2) play as a mage

 

mages is wacky overpowered, particular at high levels. the power imbalance becomes particularly noticeable to anybody who has played da more than once, as spell choices is less 'bout kewl and more 'bout power. according to feedback we got from biowarians, the toughest parties is 3 mages + 1 tank. you thinks that maybe that shoulda' clued the developers into the recognition of relative power o' mages compared to other classes?

 

step 3) read any one o' the dozen or so faqs available that explain what builds is good, and which is bad.

 

+50 hours o' trial and error is not the most time effective method for learning the intricacies of a rule system that is numbers dependent... but where the numbers is hidden from the player. figure out da weapon damage, attack frequency and likelihood o' hitting foe? for chrissakes, we have seen less complicated algorithms used to predict satellite trajectories on trips to one of saturn's moons than the numbers we has seen to explain da mechanics. d&d, for all it's faults, did not hide numbers from the player. before our ie sorcerer chose a fireball spell at level-up, we were knowing the range, damage potential, casting time and area effect o' a d&d fireball spell. no real mystery. da is different than da. petrify is more likely to "freeze" a foe than is cone of cold... and duration o' the petrification seems longer. force field works on even boss critters better than 50% o' time, even on nightmare, but crushing prison gets resisted far more frequent. ok, why? don't try and figure out da. save self time and read a faq that has high recommendations... mage faq being most important as mages have most choices available, and they will be your heavy-hitters.

 

da system is strange. yeah, particularly if you rely on rogues and warriors, da requires considerable tactical sophistication to be successful... 'course you could have three mages and shale, all spamming area effect spells 'gainst foes you sees before they can sees you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RPGmasterBoo]

I wouldn't exactly call it fun that my PC kills all the enemies before they lift a finger but okay. I wouldn't trade it for struggling with fighters and rogues though.

 

is yet another example of how Gromnir were saying that the tactics o' da were overrated somewhat 'cause o' lack o' familiarity with rules. how many folk stumbled into storm o' the century their first time through game? need spell might, which gots two o' the most useless prerequisite spells in the game: mana drain and mana cleanse. spell might itself is largely a waste unless you use in combination with animate dead or blizzard + tempest. mana clash, on the other hand, is a very effective mage killer, but for most players it is a hard sell considering the largely ineffectual prereqs.

 

am also recalling a whole bunch o' battles where the storm kinda spells were largely ineffectual-- flemmeth being the one boss battle exception. dunno if we would voluntarily build a mage as does boo, particularly playing nightmare, but we doubt most first-time players genuine pick the right spells for storm simply by reading in-game descriptions. as with the ie games, a large part of difficulty or ease is simply knowing which spells, equipment combinations, and character builds is the most efficacious. line between strategy and tactics is always a blurry one (and sometimes pointless) but for Gromnir at least, a second playthrough o' da were made easy not 'cause we knew what challenges lay ahead, but rather 'cause the mechanics o' da were less obscure with the benefit o' +50 hours o' trial and error.

 

Gromnir's da guide: how to breeze through da on nightmare without even trying

 

step 1) download the respec mod

 

am not certain why the developers likes to build terrible joinable npcs, but wynne's 8-9 levels o' crap is easily fixable with the respec mod. a pc 2h warrior is an effective glass cannon, but npcs don't have the stats or abilities to be effective as such til late in game. with the benefits of respec, sten is a very effective sword and board or dual wielding warrior. wanna make the french chick or the poncey elf useful as rogues? respec.

 

step 2) play as a mage

 

mages is wacky overpowered, particular at high levels. the power imbalance becomes particularly noticeable to anybody who has played da more than once, as spell choices is less 'bout kewl and more 'bout power. according to feedback we got from biowarians, the toughest parties is 3 mages + 1 tank. you thinks that maybe that shoulda' clued the developers into the recognition of relative power o' mages compared to other classes?

 

step 3) read any one o' the dozen or so faqs available that explain what builds is good, and which is bad.

 

+50 hours o' trial and error is not the most time effective method for learning the intricacies of a rule system that is numbers dependent... but where the numbers is hidden from the player. figure out da weapon damage, attack frequency and likelihood o' hitting foe? for chrissakes, we have seen less complicated algorithms used to predict satellite trajectories on trips to one of saturn's moons than the numbers we has seen to explain da mechanics. d&d, for all it's faults, did not hide numbers from the player. before our ie sorcerer chose a fireball spell at level-up, we were knowing the range, damage potential, casting time and area effect o' a d&d fireball spell. no real mystery. da is different than da. petrify is more likely to "freeze" a foe than is cone of cold... and duration o' the petrification seems longer. force field works on even boss critters better than 50% o' time, even on nightmare, but crushing prison gets resisted far more frequent. ok, why? don't try and figure out da. save self time and read a faq that has high recommendations... mage faq being most important as mages have most choices available, and they will be your heavy-hitters.

 

da system is strange. yeah, particularly if you rely on rogues and warriors, da requires considerable tactical sophistication to be successful... 'course you could have three mages and shale, all spamming area effect spells 'gainst foes you sees before they can sees you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Funnily enough I chose to play a pure elementalist randomly, didn't know it was such overkill - I almost always play fighters. Without much thought I just invested all my points into primal magic (as for SoC I was told how to do it by a friend well into DA, but even without spell might the two spells are a potent mix, I did start investing to get SoC but I was amazed at its killing power nonetheless). Also somehow it seemed natural to dump all points into magic and the occasional one into willpower. Whatever weaknesses this might have harbored were erased by the liberal amounts of points given for free in the Fade/Circle quest. I thought the char would be extremely weak when attacked by melee, but he could withstand a huge amount of damage + many of the spells cannot be interrupted, so an enemy up close is not very scary. I just petrify/cone of cold anything that comes near. Basically you're gifted the same overkill DnD archmages get but much much earlier.

 

Storm would be of limited use but the strange coincidence that you can see enemies in third person mode before they see you allows for a lot of abuse. Plus the minimap kindly shows you the enemies hiding around corners. Plus the AI that charges straight into the thick of the storm if you so much as touch it.

 

Be it to DA's credit or its flawed nature I grasped the various tricks quite quickly (BGII conditioning probably) and coupled with the lucky or unlucky choice of a mage as PC most of the game after finishing the third hub is cakewalk. Mostly because the system allows considerable exploit. +

For instance the devs were well aware that the dragon arenas featured areas inaccessible to the dragon, yet they included them, or that the PC can see enemies in third person mode... or the casting of spells behind walls - yet they chose to include them on purpose. Strange.

 

 

Btw I though of a great idea to make the irritating codex (I find it difficult to read text on the screen) less irritating. Remembering Wasteland it would be phenomenal if the game was released with a booklet that contains all codex entries and along with including them (in game) with a reference to the appropriate page. It would make it much more enjoyable to read and cool to own.

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Gromnir]

Right. Because, material components are all about that. Come on.

 

yeah, it pretty much is... and is also a gold sink. cost 1 gold sovereign o' diamond dust to cast 4th tier spells. makes no less sense than 6 sovereigns for 10 backpack slots.

 

d&d got wrong. fact that arch-magi were rare did not change fact that they were too powerful. why bioware replicated same mistakes is puzzling.

 

most obvious problem: too many spells. the more spells you got, the tougher it is to balance. that should be obvious, but ain't. is not the majority o' spells that make d&d arch magi ultra-powerful, but is instead a small % of all such spells. and even if a spell initially seems balanced, is no way to predict how players will use in combination with the other thousand or so available spells in the d&d catalog. balance becomes functional impossible as you increase the number o' spells. also, the more spells you gots, the more likely the mage will be able to do... everything. high level d&d mages is combat typhoons who gots functional prescience through divination, can create or summon their own ultra-powerful defenders and can, if things get genuine tough, can heal self or transport to safety. fighters, on the other hand, can hack stuff to pieces.

 

bio shoulda' reduced da spells or considerable reduced player access to spells from various schools... and shoulda' been smarter 'bout how they created and organized schools. dumb elemental crap is traditional, but is replicating same old mistakes as past. should look at spells as similar to any other combat power if you is wanting to keep balanced.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"yeah, it pretty much is..."

 

No, no it isn't,. Not if you do material components intelligently.

 

I still laugh at people claiming DA magesw are overpwoered while praising whteher it be directly or implying that BG series mages were any more 'balanced'. LMAO

[Asol]

More governers and counters to the magic system would be beneficial. The skill system is just off balance when mages are holding more cards than are divided between rogues and warriors, that makes 3 classes a weird stopping point in streamlining. Why not just 2 then or some other system. It's a bit more unfortunate long term that they pretty much wrote the system into the lore and IP.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Could someone please explain to me why I just cleared out the whole Aeducan Thaig?? There are no doors or places to visit there??? Or did I miss something?

[Gromnir]

"yeah, it pretty much is..."

 

No, no it isn't,. Not if you do material components intelligently.

 

and you is an expert on how to do intelligently? expound. other than as a gold sink, components does little, and in a crpg you greatly increase the potential for frustration. missed the one guy who sells gauss rifle ammo/diamond dust? too bad. is stoopid... and if is balanced then such nonsense is unnecessary. am also not certain who you see claiming that high level mages were particular balanced in the bg series... not that such would change the imbalance o' da mages one bit. d&d high-level mages is overpowered. bioware creates their own rules from scratch and manages to achieve same flaw. congrats to the bioware developers.

 

 

"as for SoC I was told how to do it by a friend"

 

yeah, is what we thought. you not stumble into storm.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest Slinky]

Could someone please explain to me why I just cleared out the whole Aeducan Thaig?? There are no doors or places to visit there??? Or did I miss something?

There was some bodypart bags in the deep roads, and I think one of them is in Aeducan Thaig. I you find them all (three?) a demon pops out.

 

Other than that I don't know, maybe has something to do with dwarf origin.

[RPGmasterBoo]

"as for SoC I was told how to do it by a friend"

 

yeah, is what we thought. you not stumble into storm.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, though he forgot to mention how powerful it was. Still even without it once you reach a certain level and have a lot of elemental magic at your disposal much of the combat becomes easy. I was killing enemies with earthquake+blizzard+lighting storm pretty successfully with a little work. Now even that little is gone

 

There was some bodypart bags in the deep roads, and I think one of them is in Aeducan Thaig. I you find them all (three?) a demon pops out.

 

Kangaxx huh?

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Guest Slinky]

Kangaxx huh?

 

No, Gaxkang is in another place...

 

[Gromnir]

Kangaxx huh?

 

No, Gaxkang is in another place...

 

 

 

does anybody know if gaxkang is subject to glyph of neutralization? is our recollection that glyph of neutralization can be resisted... which seems wrong. some spells that sound great in the descriptions is less so in practice.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Kangaxx huh?

 

No, Gaxkang is in another place...

 

 

 

does anybody know if gaxkang is subject to glyph of neutralization? is our recollection that glyph of neutralization can be resisted... which seems wrong. some spells that sound great in the descriptions is less so in practice.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

LOL! They actually included a character with a similar name as the BGII lich! I was just making a BGII reference, I had no idea

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Guest Slinky]

Too bad Kangaxx's sad DA cousin is a pale shadow of the real deal.

 

 

I could say the same for the whole game.

 

[Gromnir]

"as for SoC I was told how to do it by a friend"

 

yeah, is what we thought. you not stumble into storm.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, though he forgot to mention how powerful it was. Still even without it once you reach a certain level and have a lot of elemental magic at your disposal much of the combat becomes easy. I was killing enemies with earthquake+blizzard+lighting storm pretty successfully with a little work. Now even that little is gone

 

 

 

being able to "see" your foes 'round corners and even beyond some closed doors significant increases the damage potential o' those area effect spells. is cheese, but am curious as to why the developers made such a nasty exploit possible.

 

'course, am recalling that in bg2 the folk who solo'd didn't see nothing wrong with triggering a mages defense spells... then run away beyond map transition. come back in 2 minutes and repeat as necessary until all of the mages defense spells is gone.

 

bg1 were even worse with cheese tactics exploits... am suspecting that all games suffer from cheese. nevertheless, something were particular offensive 'bout being able to clear da areas simply by being 'round a corner and casting multiple area effect spells. is boring and slow, but is painless and... wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Could someone please explain to me why I just cleared out the whole Aeducan Thaig?? There are no doors or places to visit there??? Or did I miss something?"

 

You go there for thed warf noble origin. the second (or first for non dwarf nobles) is just extra, I guess. IIRC, nothing of importance is there.

 

 

"and you is an expert on how to do intelligently?"

 

Actually, yes, I am.

 

 

"components does little, and in a crpg you greatly increase the potential for frustration. missed the one guy who sells gauss rifle ammo/diamond dust? too bad. is stoopid... and if is balanced then such nonsense is unnecessary."

 

Nonsense. Components can add all sorts of stuff to the mage experience, and help curb the over use of spells. They can also add stuff like quests, C&C, and a whoel crap of other awesome stuff. If done right.

 

 

"am also not certain who you see claiming that high level mages were particular balanced in the bg series..."

 

Absolutely there is. Read posts. Reread them carefully. Then once again.

 

 

"manages to achieve same flaw."

 

Except it's not a flaw.

[Gromnir]

"and you is an expert on how to do intelligently?"

 

Actually, yes, I am.

 

then prove it. so far we hears claims, but no proofs. shows us your components solutions... though is kinda a wacky claim if you also believe there is no balance... would make the components aspect unnecessary.

 

*shrug*

 

whatever. am not concerned with decipher o' vol logic, but if you is gonna claim some superior knowledge o' how to makes spell components work in a crpg, in spite of fact that the vast majority o' developers has forgone or ignored such nonsense, then be our guest and expound. show us how is different than limited/rare ammo.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Too bad Kangaxx's sad DA cousin is a pale shadow of the real deal.

 

 

I could say the same for the whole game.

 

 

Do you know how long it took me to figure out that all you needed was the "Spell immunity: Abjuration" spell to deal with the latter form?

 

Even then I had to pelt it with darts+5 and all sorts of other tricks. Tough bastard.

 

http://www.baldurdash.org/kangaxx.html LOL, when DA gets poetry we can start making comparisons

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Gromnir]

Too bad Kangaxx's sad DA cousin is a pale shadow of the real deal.

 

 

I could say the same for the whole game.

 

 

Do you know how long it took me to figure out that all you needed was the "Spell immunity: Abjuration" spell to deal with the latter form?

 

Even then I had to pelt it with darts+5 and all sorts of other tricks. Tough bastard.

 

http://www.baldurdash.org/kangaxx.html LOL, when DA gets poetry we can start talking whose better.

 

is all kinda tricks. scrolls o' protection from undead gets you ignored. a berserker who is berserk can shrug off the imprisonment effect... give him/her the mace o' disruption and kangaxx is put back in the dead book right quick. am seeming to recollect that protection from magic scrolls were also effective-- a paladin with carsomyr would make short work of kangaxx if protected by scroll. there is a ring of the ram and traps strategy. regardless, ring of ram did good damage. am recalling a slayer strategy, but we always killed pre-slayer.

 

*chuckle*

 

got silly... after we played bg2 a couple times we developed a kinda system whereby we could kill kangaxx ridiculous fast, and then we would complete twisted rune immediate afterward so that we would still have some o' the protection scroll effects in place and active. two birds and one stone... so to speak.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps tomb o' horrors were a stoopid d&d module and demi-lichs were a ridiculous end-boss. the tombs traps were typically lethal, and it weren't as if you were offered clues to puzzle out solutions. likewise, figuring out that an astral or ethereal mage casting power word kill on a demi lich were insta-win were a matter of well reasoned conjecture on the part o' the player... not. shatter, holy word and +5 weapons all did good damage, and there were a couple spells that would make skull descend without howling or sucking a soul. 'course, even with only approx. 50 hps, the original demi-lich were probable gonna waste your unprepared party. conversely, a party that knew it were facing a demi-lich could have correct spells, weapons and scrolls on hand to get through a demi-lich encounter without a scratch. silly. bg2 got demi-lich right... 'cause kangaxx were just as silly as the original.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Gromnir

[RPGmasterBoo]

Too bad Kangaxx's sad DA cousin is a pale shadow of the real deal.

 

 

I could say the same for the whole game.

 

 

Do you know how long it took me to figure out that all you needed was the "Spell immunity: Abjuration" spell to deal with the latter form?

 

Even then I had to pelt it with darts+5 and all sorts of other tricks. Tough bastard.

 

http://www.baldurdash.org/kangaxx.html LOL, when DA gets poetry we can start talking whose better.

 

is all kinda tricks. scrolls o' protection from undead gets you ignored. a berserker who is berserk can shrug off the imprisonment effect... give him/her the mace o' disruption and kangaxx is put back in the dead book right quick. am seeming to recollect that protection from magic scrolls were also effective-- a paladin with carsomyr would make short work of kangaxx if protected by scroll. there is a ring of the ram and traps strategy. regardless, ring of ram did good damage. am recalling a slayer strategy, but we always killed pre-slayer.

 

*chuckle*

 

got silly... after we played bg2 a couple times we developed a kinda system whereby we could kill kangaxx ridiculous fast, and then we would complete twisted rune immediate afterward so that we would still have some o' the protection scroll effects in place and active. two birds and one stone... so to speak.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Well if your stuff are tricks then I don't know what his unlimited use of imprisonment is .The first two or three times you're likely to stare blankly at the screen as he decimates your party and reduces all "clever" tactics you though up a moment ago to shreds

 

...

 

Goddamn it I never knew of the Twisted rune quest until googling it up minutes ago. *grumbles* bloody huge game... rrrr

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Sannom]

Storm would be of limited use but the strange coincidence that you can see enemies in third person mode before they see you allows for a lot of abuse. Plus the minimap kindly shows you the enemies hiding around corners. Plus the AI that charges straight into the thick of the storm if you so much as touch it.

 

Storms also have another advantage : no line of sight needed

 

I still laugh at people claiming DA magesw are overpwoered while praising whteher it be directly or implying that BG series mages were any more 'balanced'. LMAO

 

Mages in the first BG were pretty much balanced, you couldn't play one alone. In the sequel though, they became monstrosities that were able to wipe an entire army by themselves. It's no wonder that the big bad went from a big warrior in scary armor to a squishy wizard in shirt and pants

And I don't think anyone ever said they were balanced in the sequel. Man, were they annoying and powerful!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Mages in the first BG were pretty much balanced, you couldn't play one alone. In the sequel though, they became monstrosities that were able to wipe an entire army by themselves. It's no wonder that the big bad went from a big warrior in scary armor to a squishy wizard in shirt and pants

And I don't think anyone ever said they were balanced in the sequel. Man, were they annoying and powerful!

 

They were rather fragile and could run out of spells (at least the protagonist could). Not saying this set them back much, but my DA mage is significantly more powerful in both regards. +their attack sucked, this one gets 10 dmg free, which can have a decisive impact sometimes.

 

It just goes to show how difficult it is making a balanced and complex cRPG system. If DnD could be flawed with the army of people working on it then Bioware's attempt was in a way doomed from the start. Perhaps they will tweak and fix it up and remove all the obvious exploits.

conversely, a party that knew it were facing a demi-lich could have correct spells, weapons and scrolls on hand to get through a demi-lich encounter without a scratch. silly. bg2 got demi-lich right... 'cause kangaxx were just as silly as the original.

 

*shrugs* in PnP preparation is everything and most times you get one chance. games benefit from the ability to load a previous position. Thus you could say that preparing well can get you instant win in everything. Its irreconcilable because DnD is not made for PC's. Still, having a monster you have to devise tricks to kill can be fun - at least more than one that boils down to pure attrition. The demi lich is really a game of knowing the system well enough, but when you do kill the bastard there's a definite feeling of satisfaction. At least for it was for the DnD noob I used to be

I had fun killing the two dragons in DA but with a mage it was pure potion attrition all the way through, which is why I killed them both on my second try. The ash dragon made me sweat a bit but Flemeth was a pushover.

Edited February 20, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo