My Dragon Age mini-rewiew

[Monte Carlo]

^ Hmmm, I see where you're coming from. Mebbe it will be modded - "open tactics slot mod"

[Purkake]

It's probably really easy to mod it in, not particularly whine-worthy.

[Volourn]

"AI but unlike other CRPG games labled it as a 'feature' of being 'tactical' and the sheep bought it."

 

L0LZ WAAA! 'Everyone who is positive must be a sheep'.

 

There are thinsg to complain about DA, and this isn't one of them. Anyone who tries to use the AI tatics thing is missing teh point. It's the same as those who used AI tatics in BG. The game is meant to be played by the player NOT the AI. Control your characters, all of them. Those tatics are for the lazy. Why do you want the AI to do all the work, anyways? On top of this, the AI is fine. It does EXACTLY what YOu tell it to do.

[Purkake]

It's really nice when the AI does something that you forgot about, I certainly don't have the time to keep an eye on all of my characters every second. It's like a contingency, so that they'll do something you'd want them to do in case you forget.

[Volourn]

That's true. Sometimes the AI does things better than me. L0L

[Purkake]

Yeah, it's not a simulation where you set the tactics and watch it play out, it's there to compliment you, not replace you completely.

[TheHarlequin]

It's probably really easy to mod it in, not particularly whine-worthy.

 

No because having to use of those valuable slots to tell my PC to use a heal pot is really smart default AI. Otherwise will fight until s/he dies while a dozen heal pots sits in their backpack.

 

Having to use a 'tactics' slot to use a class ability (like slam or shield bash) where it wont use it otherwise is a good system. And lets not get into you have far less slots then you have abilities so it again, forces you to hand hold.

 

This forces far to much artifical hand holding its annoying.

 

Sorry its poor design IMO.

Edited November 9, 2009 by TheHarlequin

[TheHarlequin]

Yeah, it's not a simulation where you set the tactics and watch it play out, it's there to compliment you, not replace you completely.

 

I never said nor implied thats what I wanted. You are going from one extreem to the other. I want a happy middle ground. Use a damn heal pot on your own if you are badly hurt I shouldnt have to tell you too for gods sake!

[Volourn]

There already is a happy middle ground. Just use the 'tatics' for 'heal self if you have less than x health', attack enemy, and that gives you two extra slots ot get fancy with just the basic tatics set up. *shrug* More than enough. Also, use one of those extra slots to quick spam at least one stun attack, and maybe 1 mass damage spell for mages.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Volourn

[TheHarlequin]

There already is a happy middle ground. Just use the 'tatics' for 'heal self if you have less than x health', attack enemy, and that gives you two extra slots ot get fancy with just the basic tatics set up. *shrug* More than enough. Also, use one of those extra slots to quick spam at least one stun attack, and maybe 1 mass damage spell for mages.

 

The 'default' AI should do more then just swing a sword or fire a bow. Using healing SHOULD be a no brainer and part of the default AI. Only if you change such in the tactics slots should it do otherwise. Clearly you are going to defend this design choice until you are blue in the face, even in the face of a superior stance as usual when in comes to the all knowing bioware. Typical. Lets agree then to disagree as I am not going to change your mind and neither am I.

Edited November 9, 2009 by TheHarlequin

[Volourn]

"Clearly you are going to defend this design choice until you are blue in the face, even in the face of a superior stance as usual when in comes to the all knowing bioware. Typical."

 

Is that the best you got? A flat out lie? Typical.

 

There are plenty of things to criticize DA for. And, I have.

 

*shrug*

 

 

The tatics is fine. Just deal with it or play another game.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Volourn

[Syraxis]

No because having to use of those valuable slots to tell my PC to use a heal pot is really smart default AI. Otherwise will fight until s/he dies while a dozen heal pots sits in their backpack.

 

Are there any recent rpg's (year 2000 -) that actually did this with little input from the user? I can't seem to recall.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Syraxis

[alanschu]

The last 1 hour of combat (AI) was so pathetic, I'm left speechless.

Are you referring to the end of the game?

No, the last hour of my current playing session. Canceled hold position from my party, they started running past the three enemies I was leading to them to attack someone they didn't even see, archer Leliana was hellbent on using Distraction even though I told her to attack, or she and Wynne just stop attacking when I don't control them actively. The enemies running past the meat shields even though they block the way didn't make me happier either.

At least the dog's useful.

 

 

Could you PM me your tactics (or post them here ) for your party members?

[Monte Carlo]

Where TH is correct is the annoying tactic of enemies rushing through my lines to attack spellcasters without sanction.

 

D&D 3 at least provides the attack of opportunity as a sanction, Dragon Age does not.

[Monte Carlo]

Are there any recent rpg's (year 2000 -) that actually did this with little input from the user? I can't seem to recall.

 

Dungeon Siege, the ultimate action-RPG-as-screensaver.

[alanschu]

I'm curious. Was part of the problem because you didn't want to "burn" skill points into Combat Tactics?

 

Yes. its silly I have to buy tactical slots to tell my party to use their own abilities. What am I supposed to do burn all my skill point into that and not beable to make healing pots or pick locks? Skills points are few and far between not like you get one every level. If the default AI would just make them use their natural abilities on their own I wouldn't have a issue. Bioware seems to just give us dumb party AI but unlike other CRPG games labled it as a 'feature' of being 'tactical' and the sheep bought it. Sad really. Where as another CRPG the community would be howling bloody murder. I suppose all CRPGs just need to do that now. Give just mininum party AI, toss in a pause button and call it a 'tactical RPG'. Spending little time on party AI solved.

 

 

I agree that it's poor design to have to dump points into combat tactics for extra tactics slots, but at the same time, it also makes sense why things NOT on the tactics slots don't get cast. It'd be counter productive for the game player to intentionally leave off spells that they don't want to be wasted, only for the AI to decide to use them when the player would like to restrict it.

 

Picking locks is a talent, not a skill, so that shouldn't cause a problem. However, since you really don't need to invest much into tactic slots for your main character (I never did), you can save that area. Skill points are rarer, but there's plenty of them for you to invest all points into combat tactics and still have them move into different aspects. Especially since the advantage of mages having combat training is significantly diminished.

 

 

If you're having issues with the combat being difficult, and find that it's in large part because you don't want to bother with micromanaging your characters, I'd suggest "burning" the points into combat tactics, since it seems as though that would make for a more enjoyable experience for yourself. You'll still have points to invest into the crafting components as well.

[alanschu]

Where TH is correct is the annoying tactic of enemies rushing through my lines to attack spellcasters without sanction.

 

D&D 3 at least provides the attack of opportunity as a sanction, Dragon Age does not.

 

 

Although this is similar to a lot of games. Save the taunt for when people go running past and use it then, and I'd recommend setting up the NPC tactics to attack the tank's target so that a tank with Threaten on can keep the attention more easily.

 

Opening up with big AOE's will make things challenging for your spell casters.

[Gfted1]

No because having to use of those valuable slots to tell my PC to use a heal pot is really smart default AI. Otherwise will fight until s/he dies while a dozen heal pots sits in their backpack.

 

Are there any recent rpg's (year 2000 -) that actually did this with little input from the user? I can't seem to recall.

 

 

IIRC, NWN II's NPC's had the ability but it was severly skewed in the opposite direction, they would chug potions like sailors on liberty. I remember having to turn AI off because of that.

[Purkake]

Yeah, it's not a simulation where you set the tactics and watch it play out, it's there to compliment you, not replace you completely.

 

I never said nor implied thats what I wanted. You are going from one extreem to the other. I want a happy middle ground. Use a damn heal pot on your own if you are badly hurt I shouldnt have to tell you too for gods sake!

 

I wasn't referring to you, it was a general comment.

 

My point was that the tactics system is there to help you, use those three slots you get at the beginning as efficiently as possible and manage other stuff manually. It's also about resource management, which abilities do you really want them to use vs. what you can trigger yourself when needed.

 

How many games give you all options at the very beginning? You play the game and learn to use the tactics system as you play and it gets more advanced over time. There are things to complain about in DA, but the tactics system is not one of them or at least it's at the very bottom.

[TheHarlequin]

No because having to use of those valuable slots to tell my PC to use a heal pot is really smart default AI. Otherwise will fight until s/he dies while a dozen heal pots sits in their backpack.

 

Are there any recent rpg's (year 2000 -) that actually did this with little input from the user? I can't seem to recall.

 

NWN2, FO3, BG2 for starters. Were any of them perfect? No but at least they gave it the college try to stay alive in a fight. I could spend my time telling pc1 to attack this guy, pc2 cast this spell here, pc3 go here and use your bow and so on. (For FO3 I had no control and the NPCs did a good job using stimpacks on their own as long as I give them some). Knowing they were all going to use their abilities as needed and at least try to use healing as needed. I don't think I am asking for a lot. Again I want to macromanage my party, not micro by some artifical system of poor design hidden by a 'tactical' label.

[alanschu]

I don't recall Baldur's Gate 2 NPCs being particularly good at managing themselves in the game. It's been a long time since I last played it, but I remember it being a game that required significantly more micromanagement than Dragon Age.

[TheHarlequin]

I don't recall Baldur's Gate 2 NPCs being particularly good at managing themselves in the game. It's been a long time since I last played it, but I remember it being a game that required significantly more micromanagement than Dragon Age.

 

I didn't find the AI worse then DA. Was it great or even good? Not that I recall but A for effort at least. At least the mages used spells on their own and the clerics casted heal.

[alanschu]

Most of my experience with Baldur's Gate 2 had the AI scripts disabled because I found it woefully ineffective and wasteful

 

 

 

Having said that, I still support the decision to not have the AI use abilities that you have not instructed them to use. Concerns over the number of tactic slots, as well as the number of tactic slots are certainly valid, but I like that the AI doesn't go around using inappropriate spells in situations that I have not specified they should use. Watching him cast Force Field on the crappy Genlock instead of the Mage would be frustrating to me. Or inappropriate use of an AOE spell that would result in me nuking my own party, or using a healing spell when I don't think it is necessary.

Edited November 9, 2009 by alanschu

[Pidesco]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't complaining about having to micromanage your party in DA akin to complaining about micromanaging your team in JA, or whatever? It's like some people want to go through the game without playing the game.

[Purkake]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't complaining about having to micromanage your party in DA akin to complaining about micromanaging your team in JA, or whatever? It's like some people want to go through the game without playing the game.

 

You and your logic, I'm just going with my original theory of people liking to complain. Sometimes they latch on the smallest, most obscure "problems" and defend their position to grave if they must.

 

If I really wanted to complain, I'd complain about the horrible animations or the somewhat weird distribution of Skills and Talents...

Edited November 9, 2009 by Purkake