There is no free speech in Finland

[Meshugger]

A pretty wellknown satirist in Finland was sentenced today for a 30 days fine for "disturbing the religious worship" for a blog-entry written in his personal blog a year ago. This law basically says that you cannot officially speak of another religion in a bad tone. This law happens to be a residue from the times when 50 different or so congregations of the christian chruch sprung up about 100 years ago. From having a Lutheran church, there were suddenly baptists, seventh day adventists, mormons, laestadians, missionary church foundation, evangelicans and so on...the law simply put in place in order to stop them from starting to kill each other.

 

Fast forward to today:

 

First, there's no denial that he is a nationalist and is not in favour of unrestricted immigration, he is also against the concept of multi-culture. However, he is favor of work- and studyrelated immigration, thus letting the universities and coorporations hire whoever they want. Still ok? Just his thoughts, ok.

 

In order to understand the context of this issue, you have to understand an aspect of Scandinavian culture: Self-hatred. There are countless of movies, musicals, operas, tales and even serious research on psychological aspects of this culture of self-hatred. This is also often characterized and satirically laughed about in newspapers and discussed in everyday life as well. Some people even suggest that this is an inevatible part of the scandinavian (at least, the finnish) spirit. All these themes, musicals, movies and popular culture have in common that it is about misfortunate men, who have difficulties to cope with their current situation and not accomplishing anything, become drunks and finally kill themselves and their family in the end. Every scando can relate to that on some level Got it? Good.

 

Now, this satirist wants to test this self-hatred within the realms of free speech. On his personal blog on the internet, he states the following (roughly translated):

 

"If Finnish men are genetically positioned to fail in life, get drunk, get into knife-fights and finally killing their families, then by the same terms, are Somalian men genetically positioned to commit rape on women, theft and never be interested to actually work? Finally, by following the previous terms: Is the religion of Islam based on worshipping a man who should considered to be a pedophile by todays standards?"

 

The satirist, Jussi Halla-aho, was today convicted on disturbing the religious worship against a religious group: The Muslims, and for defamation against a group of people: the Somalis. No conviction was made for his views on "finnish" people. Remember, no Somali or Muslim did actually accuse him for anything. It was the local state authorities themselves.

 

Unbelievable.

[Purkake]

This better not cross the Gulf of Finland. We're pretty nice and non-religious here.

 

Wasn't there some article published in Sweden that some people in Israel wanted the government to condemn? Then there's always the Mohammed caricatures in Denmark.

 

Hope they fix the laws

[Guest Slinky]

We're pretty nice and non-religious here.

So are we on the northside of the Gulf, or so I thought

 

There has been a few slander cases before, religious or not, but they are all idiotic if you ask me.

[213374U]

Hope they fix the laws

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people.

 

We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong.

[Purkake]

Spreading hate on the internet isn't very nice, but you probably shouldn't go to jail for it either. That's where the laws come in.

 

He should probably just have been ridiculed in a newspaper or something.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake

[213374U]

Spreading hate on the internet isn't very nice

How is he spreading hate, really? Or is he to be taken literally and he believes there's a genetic predisposition for failure, rape and suicide?

 

Please.

[Meshugger]

To clarify, he used this statement of genetic predisposition to show the hypocrisy in the current political climate. He succeeded.

[Purkake]

If you actually link to some science that shows a connection, otherwise it is just baseless hate.

 

If someone believes that people of a certain race/nationality/sexual orientation are somehow inherently inferior, it is hate.

[213374U]

If you actually link to some science that shows a connection, otherwise it is just baseless hate.

 

If someone believes that people of a certain race/nationality/sexual orientation are somehow inherently inferior, it is hate.

I think you need to read the OP again - it is obviously a jab at the pervasive notion that suicide and alcoholism are inherent to Scandinavian culture. And do get a sense of humour while you're at it.

 

The most he can be accused of is of being a mediocre comedian.

 

"Hate", rofl.

Edited September 8, 2009 by 213374U

[Purkake]

Racial discrimination is pretty darn funny, I'll give you that.

 

So he proved his point. Freedom of speech is somewhat limited in most(all?) countries, though. Not that I agree with his sentence.

[Meshugger]

Purkake, do you understand the position that he came from? He used the same notion that the finns have about themselves since, well forever, and applied the very same thing on the immigrants. The "humor" lies in that it is ok to stereotype the regular finn, but not the immigrant.

 

Personally, i am firmly believe that free speech is the basic right for any individual. The satirist's views should be debated, not silenced.

[Purkake]

I get the point, I was arguing with 213374U. It's not somehow OK for the French to be chauvinist, because it's part of the culture. There should be a nice balance between total tolerance and openly hating someone.

[213374U]

Racial discrimination is pretty darn funny, I'll give you that.

[...]

Not that I agree with his sentence.

Wow, mildly pungent sarcasm. You're making progress, but you're not there quite yet.

 

Hence my comment of him being a mediocre comedian. There really is nothing to agree or disagree with, because it's meant to be a humorous remark, not a political statement or scientific finding. The intent, I'm guessing, is to rustle the feathers of the PC idiots by using their own talk against them, and be funny at the same time.

 

C&B, though.

[213374U]

There should be a nice balance between total tolerance and openly hating someone.

No, there should not. Why should some opinions be censored? If I hate Jews, why do I have to hide myself? Aren't there safeguards in place to prevent hate speech from becoming hate crimes? Or does censoring hateful opinions somehow solve the problem (of hate)?

 

What good is censorship, anyway?

Edited September 8, 2009 by 213374U

[Purkake]

There should be a nice balance between total tolerance and openly hating someone.

No, there should not. Why should some opinions be censored? If I hate Jews, why do I have to hide myself? Aren't there safeguards in place to prevent hate speech from becoming hate crimes? Or does censoring hateful opinions somehow solve the problem (of hate)?

 

What good is censorship, anyway?

 

Oh I'm not propagating censorship. When someone says something stupid, they should be rightfully ridiculed for their stupid(baseless) arguments. This goes for both the religious people and anyone else.

 

So if you say you hate Jews, I'd say you're ignorant.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake

[213374U]

Well, showing that somebody is a complete idiot is a much more useful and effective way of dealing with cranks than simply silencing or jailing them. That has more like the opposite effect - as evidenced by this thread.

 

Of course, that doesn't work so well when the opponent has a valid point... or there's mostly complete idiots listening, to begin with.

[Purkake]

Well, showing that somebody is a complete idiot is a much more useful and effective way of dealing with cranks than simply silencing or jailing them. That has more like the opposite effect - as evidenced by this thread.

 

Of course, that doesn't work so well when the opponent has a valid point... or there's mostly complete idiots listening, to begin with.

 

That requires the people to actually posses some rudimentary critical thinking skills and the ability to take a step back and look at things objectively, which a lot of people seem to lack.

 

If someone has a valid point, then it might be worth listening to them or answering with another valid point, possibly creating a civilized discussion.

 

While the general Estonian apathy is not really a positive quality, it does help with keeping things in perspective and not blowing little things out of proportion.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake

[Humodour]

A pretty wellknown satirist in Finland was sentenced today for a 30 days fine for "disturbing the religious worship" for a blog-entry written in his personal blog a year ago. This law basically says that you cannot officially speak of another religion in a bad tone. This law happens to be a residue from the times when 50 different or so congregations of the christian chruch sprung up about 100 years ago. From having a Lutheran church, there were suddenly baptists, seventh day adventists, mormons, laestadians, missionary church foundation, evangelicans and so on...the law simply put in place in order to stop them from starting to kill each other.

 

Fast forward to today:

 

First, there's no denial that he is a nationalist and is not in favour of unrestricted immigration, he is also against the concept of multi-culture. However, he is favor of work- and studyrelated immigration, thus letting the universities and coorporations hire whoever they want. Still ok? Just his thoughts, ok.

 

In order to understand the context of this issue, you have to understand an aspect of Scandinavian culture: Self-hatred. There are countless of movies, musicals, operas, tales and even serious research on psychological aspects of this culture of self-hatred. This is also often characterized and satirically laughed about in newspapers and discussed in everyday life as well. Some people even suggest that this is an inevatible part of the scandinavian (at least, the finnish) spirit. All these themes, musicals, movies and popular culture have in common that it is about misfortunate men, who have difficulties to cope with their current situation and not accomplishing anything, become drunks and finally kill themselves and their family in the end. Every scando can relate to that on some level Got it? Good.

 

Now, this satirist wants to test this self-hatred within the realms of free speech. On his personal blog on the internet, he states the following (roughly translated):

 

"If Finnish men are genetically positioned to fail in life, get drunk, get into knife-fights and finally killing their families, then by the same terms, are Somalian men genetically positioned to commit rape on women, theft and never be interested to actually work? Finally, by following the previous terms: Is the religion of Islam based on worshipping a man who should considered to be a pedophile by todays standards?"

 

The satirist, Jussi Halla-aho, was today convicted on disturbing the religious worship against a religious group: The Muslims, and for defamation against a group of people: the Somalis. No conviction was made for his views on "finnish" people. Remember, no Somali or Muslim did actually accuse him for anything. It was the local state authorities themselves.

 

Unbelievable.

 

What the ****. That's ****ing ridiculous.

[Moose]

If they could, governments would outlaw emotions. They might lead to violence.

[Humodour]

If they could, governments would outlaw emotions. They might lead to violence.

 

Some governments might. Most wouldn't. But then, that was hyperbole wasn't it?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Krezack

[213374U]

That requires the people to actually posses some rudimentary critical thinking skills and the ability to take a step back and look at things objectively, which a lot of people seem to lack.

Agreed. I can't help but wonder, though: is that a sad fact of life or merely a consequence of thought railroading and opinion manipulation? Stuff like censorship is actually conducive to widespread stupidification. It is through analysis that truth is uncovered.

 

In a world where childhood heroes range from Captain Testosterone to Crynaldo, critical thinking is not something that's exactly encouraged. But to what extent is that encouraged and promoted, really? It seems we have learned nothing. Or a lot, depending on your perspective.

 

 

If they could, governments would outlaw emotions. They might lead to violence.

And that's why they are so useful. Emotions are much easier to manipulate than reason. No government would ever have reason to outlaw those when it could harness them.

[kirottu]

The "humor" lies in that it is ok to stereotype the regular finn, but not the immigrant.

 

He is a finn therefore it

[Humodour]

I don

[Purkake]

That requires the people to actually posses some rudimentary critical thinking skills and the ability to take a step back and look at things objectively, which a lot of people seem to lack.

Agreed. I can't help but wonder, though: is that a sad fact of life or merely a consequence of thought railroading and opinion manipulation? Stuff like censorship is actually conducive to widespread stupidification. It is through analysis that truth is uncovered.

 

I think it comes down to most people not caring and/or blindly following someone more charismatic with whatever agenda, because it is easier. Everything must always be us against them.

 

The majority that should balance out the extremes is so tired with the crazy antics that they don't vote or want to argue with the more extreme people.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Purkake

[Morgoth]

How does a nation, or region, known for it's excellent education system, result into self-loathing and knife fights?