Killian Kalthorne Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Why is that justice? What makes that appropriate justice compared to something else? If you deliberately murder a person then the only just recourse is to have your own life forfeited. This man help kill hundreds. Why show him mercy when he showed none to his victims? That's not explaining how that is specifically justice. You still didn't actually answer the question anyway. You gave an example of what you feels is justice with a justification for why you feel the punishment in this case is appropriate. I was hoping for something more macro level, then a specific verdict for a specific case. Having said that, I have more than beat this horse in the past with you, and quite frankly I wasn't asking you when I inquired. I'm well aware of your position. Well, excuse me for staying on topic. Sheesh! If you want a more abstract definition of justice here you go: To seek justice is to seek the truth no matter where it takes you, but is also tempered by compassion for those who have been wronged. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm sure that taks will enjoy telling you that that is not the definition of justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth InSidious Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 3. We just took a huge steaming poop on our working relationship with the US. There is no such thing as the "special relationship". I'm not quite sure what about this is difficult to understand - the US uses us as a vassal state. That is our relationship - so I don't quite see what's so bad about wanting out of it. This particularly rapid, unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 3. We just took a huge steaming poop on our working relationship with the US. There is no such thing as the "special relationship". I'm not quite sure what about this is difficult to understand - the US uses us as a vassal state. That is our relationship - so I don't quite see what's so bad about wanting out of it. OK, I'm not sure who you'd rather we were in bed with, but that's really rather irrelevant. 1. The US is our key partner in Afghanistan 2. Labour has committed to Afghanistan 3. Pooping on our key partner is bad 4. Ignoring a solemn commitment to our key partner is pooping on them 5. Our Prime-minister is asleep at the wheel "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm sure that taks will enjoy telling you that that is not the definition of justice Well, that is my definition of justice. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I actually really hate hearing that, DI. I think most of us really do love England in a lot of ways. Many of us admire your history. When I went to England a while back with some family members, one of my younger companions complained about going to see the Magna Carta. He wondered why we had to look at stupid British history stuff. I calmly explained to him that British history is our history. Britain is Britain and the United States are the United States, but we have a shared and noble history. I'm probably a little biased because I have family over there, but I think my views are pretty common in the United States. Yes, we are the more powerful nation, but someone is always more powerful than someone else. There were times when the United Kingdom was more powerful than the United States. You did, after all, burn our capitol (bastards!) in... 1813? Somewhere around there, I forget. Anyhow, even during the revolution, even in the years following the revolution, many Americans were staunch Anglophiles. We do have a special relationship with the United Kingdom. We are more powerful than France, but I doubt we've ever had the same feelings for France, even during the revolution, more Americans probably felt closer to the United Kingdom. We are more powerful than Spain, and yet we have never had the same relationship. The United Kingdom isn't some vassal state. I firmly believe that there are no permanent allies any more than there are permanent enemies, but you guys are probably the closest thing to a permanent ally we've ever had. The irony about the Magna Carta is that we went there to see it and it was on loan to the United States at the time. I think we missed it by a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm sure that taks will enjoy telling you that that is not the definition of justice Well, that is my definition of justice. That's fair. I'm not the only person in this thread that understands the subjective nature of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm sure that taks will enjoy telling you that that is not the definition of justice Well, that is my definition of justice. That's fair. I'm not the only person in this thread that understands the subjective nature of justice. True, but we always happen to believe our own idea of justice is the best, right? "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm sure that taks will enjoy telling you that that is not the definition of justice Well, that is my definition of justice. That's fair. I'm not the only person in this thread that understands the subjective nature of justice. True, but we always happen to believe our own idea of justice is the best, right? It's the human condition, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Which was what was so ironic about taks going on about the definition of justice. Definitions can be interpreted transitively, in that something such as "the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness" (Dictionary.com) is vague without understanding what terms like "just," "equitableness," "moral rightness," and "righteousness" mean. I have little doubts that there are people in the "lesser civilized" nations that believe that the punishments issued by them are shining examples of justice. The reason why I had no issues with Rostere's "definition" of justice, is that I made the conclusion that Rostere feels that his 3 points in some way are conveyed by his perception of what it means to be just, equitable, righteous, and morally right. To get caught up on the specifics of what words are used in the actual definition was not expected. And yes Aristes, it is the human condition. Human beings go through a great deal of trouble to prevent cognitive dissonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I actually really hate hearing that, DI. I think most of us really do love England in a lot of ways. Many of us admire your history. When I went to England a while back with some family members, one of my younger companions complained about going to see the Magna Carta. He wondered why we had to look at stupid British history stuff. I calmly explained to him that British history is our history. Britain is Britain and the United States are the United States, but we have a shared and noble history. I'm probably a little biased because I have family over there, but I think my views are pretty common in the United States. Yes, we are the more powerful nation, but someone is always more powerful than someone else. There were times when the United Kingdom was more powerful than the United States. You did, after all, burn our capitol (bastards!) in... 1813? Somewhere around there, I forget. Anyhow, even during the revolution, even in the years following the revolution, many Americans were staunch Anglophiles. We do have a special relationship with the United Kingdom. We are more powerful than France, but I doubt we've ever had the same feelings for France, even during the revolution, more Americans probably felt closer to the United Kingdom. We are more powerful than Spain, and yet we have never had the same relationship. The United Kingdom isn't some vassal state. I firmly believe that there are no permanent allies any more than there are permanent enemies, but you guys are probably the closest thing to a permanent ally we've ever had. The irony about the Magna Carta is that we went there to see it and it was on loan to the United States at the time. I think we missed it by a few months. Probably worth its own thread, tbh. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Zoraptor, you make an interesting point, and thanks for mentioning at least one source. I suggest you have a quick squizz at the BBC historical version. I would suggest this was a case of 'running with scissors', where a **** ups happen in a warzone in times of war. If you think you may be attacked you have literally a couple of seconds to react with modern missiles. There had been attacks on US forces by both Iraq and Iran, and the captain apparently decided enough was enough from the unidentified target. I don't want to have a go at the poor buggers who died on that airliner, but what in the name of unholy **** was it doing flying across contested waters during a shooting war? I guess they thought that a scheduled civilian aircraft maintaining all normal civilian patterns shouldn't be in danger. Which it really shouldn't have, as the shoot down did require the Vincennes to get pretty much everything possible wrong. I don't doubt it was a mistake, but I'd put it into the 'drunk driver' type category where- sure- it's a mistake, but not one where it simply being a mistake is grounds for exoneration, nor indeed much mitigation. Of course, the thing which really annoyed me was the obfuscation and outright lies flung about in at attempt to muddle responsibility, some of which are apparently believed to this day, and the utter contempt shown by giving the air controller a medal. To bring it back somewhat to the original topic, despite being of the opinion al-Megrahi's conviction was unsound I wasn't best pleased with how al-Megrahi was greeted in Libya either. It was unnecessarily insulting to those who lost loved ones and honestly believe he was responsible, but I kind of expect that sort of thing from Gaddafi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I'll give Zoraptor some mad props for at least taking the time to cite sources. I'll admit I have gotten lazy in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I don't actually know what the Uks record is on this sort of thing, but I do know that the atmosphere seems very different from the US Forces. The default setting for US Forces seems to be 'sod you' to everyone else. This is, I would argue, blindly damaging to the reputation and effectiveness of those forces. Of course I accept I'm biased. I'm also jealous since the UK emphasis seems to be to hang peopel out to dry at the first hint of trouble. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Which was what was so ironic about taks going on about the definition of justice. Well, you know taks. He can be so tacky. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) "Is there a true justice?" - Socrates Man, i love doing these quotes. It is the perfect cop-out and it makes you look well-read in front of the ladies as well. Edited September 9, 2009 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 He's so dreamy! - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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