How well does Integration of Immigrants work in your country?

[Morgoth]

Just the other day I read news that in Salzburg, a carrier-organization having another few hundred illegal immigrants from Iraq, Turkey, Chechenya etc. on board have been intercepted by police, and more disgracefully, this case has been covered up by the interior ministry back then because there was a state election due shortly. Well, I think, with our scumbag socialist government, who have forced mass immegration since decades (especially from Turkey), giving basically everyone asylum despite not being politically chased, allowing the whole family of the person to settle down here and paying them social security from tax-payers money (despite living here for years and still not having a job), this case doesn't really surprise me at all. It's really weird. Just a week ago, I met an Iraqui refugee who lives here for a year now and already speaks incredibly good German, currently serves in the Army to get the Austrian citizenship and has plans to continue his study here (journalism) once he's done with it. And then there are families from Turkey, who live here for 10 or 15 years, still speak hardly any German despite getting offered language support, have no Job, have 5-8 kids with no jobs, no volition to take futher education beyond secondary school, no volition to integrate in your society, and generally displaying offensive, troublemaking behavior. In cities like Vienna, Cologne or Berlin, there are districts were schools are filled up to 90% with immigrants who speak litlle to no German, forcing parents to send their native kids into expensive private schools who can afford it, those who can't will have kids growing up in these classes that will end up underqualified and depressed. As a result, pupils, parents and whatnot get more frustrated from our government who always presses immigration and multi-culti society is a necessary thing, this forcing to lend more and more their votes to the right-wing parties that reject these ideas. (and make us obviously evil Nazis again. Hur Hur).

So, I wonder, how well does immigration, especially those from Turkey, work in your country? Do parallel societies emerge? Do you think religion (Islam) is part of this problem that prohibits to acknowledge values of western society? Or is it rather a social problem? Are newer generations more fond of merging into western society, and how well is your government prepared for further mass immigration? How strict are your countries immigration laws?

[Kaftan Barlast]

I think the situation is more or less the same in all european countries with high immigration. Ghettoes form where immigrants have no chance of becomming a real part of society, leading to poverty, alienation and crime.

 

 

But I did hear that in Finland, a land with increadibly strict immigration policy, the same ghettoes appear only that theyre filled with poor finns instead of immigrants. Is that really true?

[Humodour]

It works really well in Australia (minor kerfuffles such as those moronic Cronulla riots where drunk bogans and low-life gangs had a bit of a tiff), but we have the advantage of being an isolated island in the middle of nowhere. Actually, I'm not sure that's such an advantage since it means we have a massive border to cover. Still, Australia's basic cultural framework is immigration - at any one point in time, 25% of Australians weren't born here. We have an intake of about 100,000 to 300,000 new arrivals each year (it varies each year). A significant portion of them are Muslims, but the key thing to consider is that a) they are thoroughly vetted (typically for skills like doctors, bricklayers, etc, as well as their English), and b) they are accepted alongside many more immigrants from other countries/faiths which helps strengthen that somewhat ephemeral sense of multiculturalism.

 

The biggest problem would probably be some gang activity in Sydney's less well-off Western surburbs, but that's usually blown out of proportion by the Daily Telegraph. Certainly the hyped up threat of the moment is gangs of a different sort - bikie gangs, which is predominately middle-aged white males.

 

But yeah, I'm not sure how well immigration policy is working in other countries. Many European countries have had largely closed borders up until the middle of last century. I imagine opening them so swiftly would have caused a bit of a culture shock. Australia has had immigrants coming in since inception - Chinese, Afghanistanis, Italians, you name it. Still, I see Europeans as somewhat xenophobic and less multicultural and integrated than Canada, America, New Zealand and Australia (I'd include Britain but there seems to be a fair bit of racial tension there). That's my take at least. Haven't been to Europe personally yet.

[Purkake]

They don't really want to come here much. Must be too cold or unfriendly.

[Rosbjerg]

Immigration, and how to handle it, is one of the most important political agenda here..

 

Denmark is a pretty rough place for immigrants I think, especially for Turks and Arabs (here used as a term for people from the Middle East) - we have a clearly racist political party with 12% support, who believes (and isn't afraid to say) that Islam is the root of all evil.

 

A recent suvery however showed that up to 80% of immigrants are happy to live here, so maybe the media makes it seem worse.

 

We have similar issues, with Arabs and Turks having a hard time getting jobs. This is not a problem for Asians it seems, as I've worked with considerably more east asian people than Arabs and I see several Chinese, Vietnamese etc working along Danes in many different jobs. I don't know what the reason is for this, if Danish employees won't hire someone with an arab sounding name, or some other problems are at work.. Personally the few Arabs I know are either employed and tell me that they never had a problem - or seem content not to look for jobs (and never really have) because they are convinced that they won't get any. I'm convinced that the problem is attitude for everyone involved.

 

Personally I do think Religion is a problem in integration (every religion!) as very religious people will place their holy text above the given laws in the country they live in, which causes tensions on both sides of the fence. In my experience extremists from any religion only cause problems where they are, because they are unwilling to compromise with their veiws and demand that others respect their religion. Like Muslims demanding censoringng of free speech so it becomes illegal to critisize Islam.. which leads me to the biggest problem -

 

In Europe, I think we are too conservatively biased on freedom of conduct and opinion - to the point that we are downright intolerant towards anyone with a different view (ironic, I know).. At the same time we have a habit of listening and responding to the radicals in a given group rather than talking to the moderates.. which means we tend to think that a given group (Muslims for instance) is as extreme as those loudest among them. Which only alienates us from them and vice versa.. there is no pleasing extremists, at least not in any way that is reasonable, so they should be ignored - because their opinions are irrelevant.

 

- Rosbjerg

[Gorgon]

I see a lot of integration happening every day here in Versterbro. The schools in particular. I think the problem is there still aren't enough immigrants. Once you become a truly multicultural hub, like London or Paris for instance, it forces the process.

 

Being named Muhammad is not going to hurt your chances of getting job most places. It certainly did 10, or maybe just 5 years ago.

[Rosbjerg]

I see a lot of integration happening every day here in Versterbro. The schools in particular. I think the problem is there still aren't enough immigrants. Once you become a truly multicultural hub, like London or Paris for instance, it forces the process.

 

Being named Muhammad is not going to hurt your chances of getting job most places. It certainly did 10, or maybe just 5 years ago.

 

I think the bad seeds are only a handful, they are just loud enough to fill a block.. I live in the center of N

[Morgoth]

I see a lot of integration happening every day here in Versterbro. The schools in particular. I think the problem is there still aren't enough immigrants. Once you become a truly multicultural hub, like London or Paris for instance, it forces the process.

 

Being named Muhammad is not going to hurt your chances of getting job most places. It certainly did 10, or maybe just 5 years ago.

Do you think forcing immigration of muslims is a good thing? And why do you think becoming a multicultural hub is a good thing? What makes a multicultural society better?

 

Otherwise, I agree with Rosberg. Asians are keen learner and work very hard, therefor they integrate very well into our high-performance society. It just seems to be that particularly Turks (I know now I sound like a racist ass) are damn slow, or even unwilling to accept democracy and freedom of religion. And there're plenty of them, particularly in Germany (2,7 million) and Austria (350k).

[Humodour]

And why do you think becoming a multicultural hub is a good thing? What makes a multicultural society better?

 

Increased freedom? Increased tolerance? Increased opportunities? Increased knowledge of the world? I could go on, but I suspect you've already determined that you don't like multiculturalism.

[Morgoth]

And why do you think becoming a multicultural hub is a good thing? What makes a multicultural society better?

 

Increased freedom? Increased tolerance? Increased opportunities? Increased knowledge of the world? I could go on, but I suspect you've already determined that you don't like multiculturalism.

Now now, you sound like these neo-liberal dreamer politicians. We're talking reality. Who has to deal with immigrants the most? That's right, pupils/students. And when they grow up and always get mobbed, feeling like they're alien in their own country, do you really consider this an improvement?

[Humodour]

And why do you think becoming a multicultural hub is a good thing? What makes a multicultural society better?

 

Increased freedom? Increased tolerance? Increased opportunities? Increased knowledge of the world? I could go on, but I suspect you've already determined that you don't like multiculturalism.

Now now, you sound like these neo-liberal dreamer politicians. We're talking reality. Who has to deal with immigrants the most? That's right, pupils/students. And when they grow up and always get mobbed, feeling like they're alien in their own country, do you really consider this an improvement?

 

Um, neo-liberals are right-wing economic conservatives. I'm pretty sure I don't sound like them.

 

Also, you lost me at the bit about students being mobbed and feeling like aliens?

[Morgoth]

Also, you lost me at the bit about students being mobbed and feeling like aliens?

Well, these are the people who are growing up in a societity that despises their own moral believes and own agenda by living in anxiety because most classes (read above: up to 90% immigrants per class, most of them Turks) mob everyone else, thus making it impossible for these young people to develop their own strengths. If you get forced my Turkish kids to "play along" with nthem every day, you start to feel like an outsider, get frustrated and therefor lose any believe into a multi-culty society that theoretically could work well, but doesn't because there are these particular subjects that don't blend into society, but force everyone else to belnd to their believes.

Integrationis an effort that has to work from both sides, but many muslim immigrants make this impossible.

 

I'm all for a multi-culty society that embraces education, tolerance and performance, but having these parallel structures emerging that pulls your own culture down into the dirt makes this effort zilch. Multi-Culty yes, but there needs to be a larger EU wide dialog about if the Islam is even compatible with our western views.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Morgoth

[Walsingham]

I have a friend who works for a charity which provides mental health care and integration assistance for immigrants, and his view is that there is a problem. You simply cannot pull people from a life of brutalisation and fear and pat them on the head and expect them to be fine. It is neither kind nor sensible to do so, it is simply easy. All of the most terrifying acts of gang violence I've read about in the last few years have involved people who have fled African civil wars. I don't think this is pure coincidence.

 

I would go further and point out that many immigrants come from backgrounds without a (western) formal education or any respect for law, because where they come from the law isn't worth respect. This causes issues. In turn they find out attitudes to social mores like honesty and modesty disgusting. I'm not always sure they're wrong. The former means we don't mix with them because we can't think of anything to say. The latter means they don't mix with us because they are afraid of what we might say if we could think of something.

 

I believe entirely in immigration, from as many diverse places as possible. But I also believe in doing it right, and that means a proper framework for acceptance, and support. Unfortunately, like most things I believe in, no-one seems to be willing to pay the up front price, and are quite happy to accept the far larger secondary costs.

[Humodour]

I have a friend who works for a charity which provides mental health care and integration assistance for immigrants, and his view is that there is a problem. You simply cannot pull people from a life of brutalisation and fear and pat them on the head and expect them to be fine. It is neither kind nor sensible to do so, it is simply easy. All of the most terrifying acts of gang violence I've read about in the last few years have involved people who have fled African civil wars. I don't think this is pure coincidence.

 

I would go further and point out that many immigrants come from backgrounds without a (western) formal education or any respect for law, because where they come from the law isn't worth respect. This causes issues. In turn they find out attitudes to social mores like honesty and modesty disgusting. I'm not always sure they're wrong. The former means we don't mix with them because we can't think of anything to say. The latter means they don't mix with us because they are afraid of what we might say if we could think of something.

 

I believe entirely in immigration, from as many diverse places as possible. But I also believe in doing it right, and that means a proper framework for acceptance, and support. Unfortunately, like most things I believe in, no-one seems to be willing to pay the up front price, and are quite happy to accept the far larger secondary costs.

 

Well, I think Australia does it right. You set limits, boundaries, and frameworks. We significantly lowered our intake of sub-Saharans at one point because they were simply not integrating well. It's completely reasonable to expect your immigrants to obey your laws, learn your language (but not lose their own), arrive with savings, and find a job (hence why skilled workers are given priority).

 

I believe part of the problem in Europe, and I've done a little research on the Netherlands and France, is that in the 1970's or so (from memory), the governments of the time pitched these massive immigration pushes to places like Turkey and the Middle East for cheap labour at the height of the baby boom. Unfortunately they didn't bother to screen those arrivals, didn't bother to plan for what would would happen 10 years later (perhaps they expected them to simply go home?), didn't bother to ensure the arrivals had saved to pay for their stay, and didn't bother to integrate them from the start.

 

Also, you lost me at the bit about students being mobbed and feeling like aliens?

Well, these are the people who are growing up in a societity that despises their own moral believes and own agenda by living in anxiety because most classes (read above: up to 90% immigrants per class, most of them Turks) mob everyone else, thus making it impossible for these young people to develop their own strengths. If you get forced my Turkish kids to "play along" with nthem every day, you start to feel like an outsider, get frustrated and therefor lose any believe into a multi-culty society that theoretically could work well, but doesn't because there are these particular subjects that don't blend into society, but force everyone else to belnd to their believes.

Integrationis an effort that has to work from both sides, but many muslim immigrants make this impossible.

 

I'm all for a multi-culty society that embraces education, tolerance and performance, but having these parallel structures emerging that pulls your own culture down into the dirt makes this effort zilch. Multi-Culty yes, but there needs to be a larger EU wide dialog about if the Islam is even compatible with our western views.

 

Uh...

[Morgoth]

Uh...

?

[Hurlshort]

Well, the US has been a big mixing pot since the beginning, so I'm sure it's a bit different than European countries. Not to mention we are huge, so it's really just a matter of finding a community that you are comfortable in as an immigrant.

 

The "is Islam compatible with Western views?" is a pretty loaded question. Of course they are compatible, if both sides are being tolerant and accepting of one another. The US has a huge Muslim community, and in many cities that community is active in politics, city improvement plans, and education. I call that integration.

 

But to be fair, we probably have a very different type of person immigrating to the US. It is fairly expensive to get over here from the Middle East, and so we are getting more of the Middle Class demographic.

[Morgoth]

The "is Islam compatible with Western views?" is a pretty loaded question. Of course they are compatible, if both sides are being tolerant and accepting of one another.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I should have wrote "Turkish nationalism" doesn't really allow to be compatible with western views. If only 30% of Turks have a school-leaving certificate, there're problems programmed. Again, in Europe, you need a high education to have a chance to get a decent job (duh). Why is it a Chinese, Pakistani, Afghan or Vietnamnese do well with their lives, while Turks don't? This will become a staggering issue, at least in my country.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Morgoth

[Gorgon]

I'm not suggesting forcing immigration, I'm just saying that these problems with racism are more intensely felt where the immigrants are fewer in number, have all the bad jobs, and are isolated in ghettos. It's not so much a question of assimilation as of getting along with one another, and that's a learning by doing process.

 

I suppose the biggest issues with middle eastern immigrants are crime and a percieved disregard for freedom of speech.

 

Personally I support the right of anyone to criticize and ridicule any religion any time, that's not to say that doing so is a good idea, but freedom of expression either exists or it doesn't, you can't factor good sense or situational awareness into the definition if you want it to mean anything.

 

As for the gang and violence problem, that's only solvable in the very long view by making sure young immigrants don't define themselves in opposition to the rest of society, which is often the case.

[Morgoth]

Violence in Austria is relatively low, because we don't force building getthos in the bigger cities, but better look for carefully mixed flats everywhere, where getthos can't emerge. It also helps that immigrants live and breath through our social welfare benefits (our government to blame), so there's no need really to get violent.

It all begann in the late 50s, early 60s, when Turks und Ex-Jugoslavian workers were hired for construction companies etc. There wasn't really put a lot thought into if these people just are here to work, or if they will stay. Of course they stayed and policy allowed it to bring the whole family into Austria to settle them down there. Of course these people never really valued education that much, so their kid's kids didn't neither. It increases the problem because neither do they find enough jobs, nor do the Turkish kids learn their mother language from their parents. And without being able to speak your mother language, you can't learn a foreign language. And that despite they all have the same chances as everyone alse.

[samm]

Uh...

Ain't it obvious

[Morgoth]

Ain't it obvious

?

[Hell Kitty]

As for the gang and violence problem, that's only solvable in the very long view by making sure young immigrants don't define themselves in opposition to the rest of society, which is often the case.

 

Indeed. I caught up with an old school friend recently and he complained that there weren't many Aussies in the suburb he just moved into, it was mostly Asians. In my experience this is a pretty typical view here amongst white people, that if you aren't white you don't get called an Aussie. How are immigrants supposed to integrate when society constantly insists that they belong to some other group?

[Enoch]

Well, the US has been a big mixing pot since the beginning, so I'm sure it's a bit different than European countries. Not to mention we are huge, so it's really just a matter of finding a community that you are comfortable in as an immigrant.

Agreed. First-world nations that used to be European colonies, like the U.S. and Australia, have a much easier time of this sort of thing because cultural norms simply have shallower roots and are more easily shifted. In Europe, so much of the national identities are based on deeply rooted cultural traditions, so a large-scale influx of people who don't share these traditions has a more profound effect. Also, the more socialised economic systems you find in Western Europe create a rather heavy economic incentive for the native-born population to dislike the newcomers.

 

Also, per the earlier comments on East Asian immigrants assimilating more easily, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of work ethic or intelligence. I think it's more a result of the culture in their home countries, which tends to value things like humility and non-confrontational attitudes, and respects and strives for secular education.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Enoch

[Cycloneman]

Agreed. First-world nations that used to be European colonies, like the U.S. and Australia, have a much easier time of this sort of thing because cultural norms simply have shallower roots and are more easily shifted. In Europe, so much of the national identities are based on deeply rooted cultural traditions, so a large-scale influx of people who don't share these traditions has a more profound effect. Also, the more socialised economic systems you find in Western Europe create a rather heavy economic incentive for the native-born population to dislike the newcomers.

Sorry, European exceptionalism is just as dumb as American exceptionalism.

 

This is your American counterpart: "Oh, UHC can't work here because people are more spread out!"

Also, per the earlier comments on East Asian immigrants assimilating more easily, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of work ethic or intelligence. I think it's more a result of the culture in their home countries, which tends to value things like humility and non-confrontational attitudes, and respects and strives for secular education.

Perhaps it's due to the expensiveness of immigration from Southeast Asia, thus selecting out the poor? No, it must be because culture culture entire racial region culture culture.

[Enoch]

Well, any time one tries to talk about nations/regions/religions/cultures in a sub-doctorate-thesis-scale manner, there are going to be some rather broad generalizations used. Any causes discussed are always going to be "contributing" rather than "direct 1-to-1 causation," and some liberties must be taken in describing comparative elements in institutions/populations/cultures/faiths/etc. If any of the ones I mentioned offended at all, I apologize.

 

And the point about the increased cost of emigrating from East Asia is a good one.