Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Slowtrain]

it's both, actually. It's very front heavy. Even when using both hands, it's less accurate than the pistol of the same caliber. They really aren't that useful.

 

 

From what I understand, their biggest saving grace, vs the Thompson, was that the M3 was relatively cheap to manufacture.

[Aram]

it's both, actually. It's very front heavy. Even when using both hands, it's less accurate than the pistol of the same caliber. They really aren't that useful.

I don't think that's quite right.

[Kjarista]

it's both, actually. It's very front heavy. Even when using both hands, it's less accurate than the pistol of the same caliber. They really aren't that useful.

 

 

From what I understand, their biggest saving grace, vs the Thompson, was that the M3 was relatively cheap to manufacture.

 

I think that's right. The Thompson is a beautiful firearm. I've seen one but not fired one. Receiver is machined. The M3 looks like cast aluminum sides welded together. The barrel screws onto the front, and the bolt block just blows back on two rods with springs. Can't cost more than a couple dozen bucks to make. Can say the same for an AK though, and the AK is a much better weapon.

[Kjarista]

it's both, actually. It's very front heavy. Even when using both hands, it's less accurate than the pistol of the same caliber. They really aren't that useful.

I don't think that's quite right.

 

I guarantee it. With a pistol, I can put 7 rounds through a half man target with ease. With the M3, the first shot is a guaranteed hit, but after that, even on short burst, the muzzle goes all over the place.

[Kjarista]

What they don't have in FO3 are the big gun machine guns...the bozars, the M60s, SAWs, etc. I'd like to see those return, for use with the big gun skill. I'd also like to see a Barrett 50 cal sniper weapon, also for big gun skill.

[Aram]

It's possible to fire single shots with an M3 with proper trigger discipline. If it's put together competently, a full size SMG is going to put lead on target better than a pistol. That is, if the shooter can.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aram

[GreasyDogMeat]

M3 'Grease Gun' & Thompson were both .45 cal weapons. The M3 was actually based on the design of the British Sten gun and could be modified to fire 9mm rounds. M3 had a fire rate of 500 rpm while the Thompson fired at 700-800 rpm (wwII era). While I haven't fired either (would love to if I could though), I would imagine the M3 would be easier to sustain at full auto with its slower rate of fire. It did weigh about 2 lbs less than the 10 lb Thompson though, and the extra weight of the Thompson may have taken some of the kick.

[Aram]

What they don't have in FO3 are the big gun machine guns...the bozars, the M60s, SAWs, etc. I'd like to see those return, for use with the big gun skill. I'd also like to see a Barrett 50 cal sniper weapon, also for big gun skill.

Maybe not a Barrett, but definitely a big bore "antitank" rifle in the spirit of those fielded by various European countries in WW2. Hell, the Germans had one as early as WW1. I believe the Bozar was originally intended as a big sniper rifle as evidenced by its description, but somewhere it was changed to a machinegun.

[Gizmo]

What they don't have in FO3 are the big gun machine guns...the bozars, the M60s, SAWs, etc. I'd like to see those return, for use with the big gun skill. I'd also like to see a Barrett 50 cal sniper weapon, also for big gun skill.

Agreed.

 

With an M-60, FaceGen, and them removing the hard coded starting age... I can make my character just as I want.

 

*and be the "Shakiest Gun in the Waste"

Edited May 12, 2009 by Gizmo

[Kjarista]

It's possible to fire single shots with an M3 with proper trigger discipline. If it's put together competently, a full size SMG is going to put lead on target better than a pistol. That is, if the shooter can.

 

If you are going to single shot it, what's the point? The only real use it has is to give you more rounds in the magazine. They only gave them to vehicle drivers and where compact weapons were required. General consensus at that time was to leave them in the arms room and draw an M16. They were deleted from inventory about the time the P92's entered service.

[Slowtrain]

What they don't have in FO3 are the big gun machine guns...the bozars, the M60s, SAWs, etc. I'd like to see those return, for use with the big gun skill. I'd also like to see a Barrett 50 cal sniper weapon, also for big gun skill.

 

 

I thought there was a bit too much imbalance in the weapon numbers in FO3. A huge number of small guns, a lot of melee weapons (although only a small number were really useful), but then a pretty small number of big guns and energy weapons.

 

I'm partial to the Big Gun category and I would have liked to see a couple more options in that skill. Also a couple more in the energy weapon skill.

 

Maybe go back to FO: Tactics and bring back the Browning M2! Hey, if you can carry an minigun why not a big ol .50 cal heavy MG.

[Aram]

Maybe not a Barrett, but definitely a big bore "antitank" rifle in the spirit of those fielded by various European countries in WW2. Hell, the Germans had one as early as WW1. I believe the Bozar was originally intended as a big sniper rifle as evidenced by its description, but somewhere it was changed to a machinegun.

Quoting myself!

 

 

loool

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aram

[Gizmo]

[Aram]

It's possible to fire single shots with an M3 with proper trigger discipline. If it's put together competently, a full size SMG is going to put lead on target better than a pistol. That is, if the shooter can.

 

If you are going to single shot it, what's the point?

The increased accuracy/velocity of a full size weapon and the option of full auto in a pinch. All I said was that it's not less accurate than a pistol. I guarantee you can shoot it more accurately full auto than a pistol converted to full auto.

[GreasyDogMeat]

 

Talk about overcompensating!

[Slowtrain]

He's not overcompensating. He's just excited about getting his picture taken.

Edited May 12, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Kjarista]

M3 'Grease Gun' & Thompson were both .45 cal weapons. The M3 was actually based on the design of the British Sten gun and could be modified to fire 9mm rounds. M3 had a fire rate of 500 rpm while the Thompson fired at 700-800 rpm (wwII era). While I haven't fired either (would love to if I could though), I would imagine the M3 would be easier to sustain at full auto with its slower rate of fire. It did weigh about 2 lbs less than the 10 lb Thompson though, and the extra weight of the Thompson may have taken some of the kick.

 

There's no way to control the muzzle of the M3, and the barrel is only...I can't remember, something like 6 inches. The Thompson, according the the friend who showed me his, also had substantial muzzle climb, but it did have a compensator that cut down on that a bit, and a detachable hand grip forward,which would also help control muzzle climb, although those features were deleted on the military production models. Just the extended barrel length made them more accurate. My uncle claims that they were highly pissed when they were told to surrender their Thompsons to be replaced by the M3s. Many, including him, refused to do so. He said that a couple Thompson could lay down effective final protective fire and that the 45 provided excellent stopping power.

 

So ya, back to the M3: Having an M3 is better than not having anything, but given the choice, it's really not that great a weapon. Pistol range = grenade range, and in that battle, grenades probably win most of the time.

[Kjarista]

It's possible to fire single shots with an M3 with proper trigger discipline. If it's put together competently, a full size SMG is going to put lead on target better than a pistol. That is, if the shooter can.

 

If you are going to single shot it, what's the point?

The increased accuracy/velocity of a full size weapon and the option of full auto in a pinch. All I said was that it's not less accurate than a pistol. I guarantee you can shoot it more accurately full auto than a pistol converted to full auto.

 

The M3 is not a full size weapon. Any trained shooter can empty a 45 pistol in the time an M3 can empty it's clip, and hit MORE TIMES than the M3 can hit. When I say by the time the third round leaves the M3, the sights are well off the target, I'm not kidding.

[GreasyDogMeat]

 

This guy seems pretty accurate with one. Then again I don't know just how much he has modified it. Either way I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

 

 

You can really see it kick in this.

 

 

LOL, this women unloads full auto and seems to handle it better than the guy above. Wish we could see where her bullets were landing though. Actually, that wasn't a Grease Gun.

 

 

Thompson... such a cool gun. Both the older fedora wearing gangster model and the WWII model.

Edited May 12, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[Aram]

The Grease gun relates to a specific time when weapons had to be churned out in mass using metal recycled from your mother's frying pans she donated at Uncle Sam's last steel drive, stamped together for $5 to very loose specifications, thrown in a pile, and sent to the front to be shot until it rattled itself apart. The only thing that mattered was that it worked, and for the most part it did, in the role it filled. It wasn't nearly as useful as a rifle--no SMG is outside of very close range. I'm not saying it's a great weapon even by the standards of its day, or that it should be anywhere near a military arsenal of today. It belongs in Fallout because the Fallout timeline emulates its era and it offers an explanation for why there are so many floating around and ready to be snatched from armories because they're not on the super tech front line. It also makes sense that they would still be working (maybe) in the wasteland, in the hands of filthy raiders and dirt farmers, because for all their faults they were very reliable and could work with all manner of dirt and crap in them.

 

And despite all of its many faults, you can not tell me it does not offer more firepower than a standard GI pistol. I don't care how bad you personally are at firing it.

 

 

The Thompson is everything the Grease gun is not. It relates to a different era, the twenties and thirties, when submachine-guns were purchased by the highest bidder instead of the lowest. The very early Thompsons, especially the 1921 vintage built by Colt, were pieces of mechanical artistry. They had the look and feel of something extremely well built by someone who knew how to build guns, with a finish and wood quality on par with the finest sporting weapons of the day. A comparable weapon would be other prewar weapons such as the Steyr-Solothurn or the like, rather than any of the subguns devised during or after the war. World War 2 basically changed the way the submachine-gun was built in horrible way, a shift it didn't recover from until very recently. The only modern submachine-guns built with as much care and skill as those early Thompsons is, say, a Heckler & Koch or similar.

 

Comparing a Thompson to a Grease gun is like comparing a Packard to a Jeep. The former is much too overbuilt, unwieldy, and expensive for a military to consider for grand scale production, but you know which one you'd rather have.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aram

[cronicler]

Warning! The following post is VERY gunnuty. skip it if you are just going to comment: no need to go that much into detail, and other stuff please.

 

As you might have noticed, I have a little weapon fascination. I have been gaming and game mastering on pc and TT for a long time. I also have some basic but practical programming/deconstruction understanding. I will try to list how a detailed but easy to use Weapon and Crafting system can be structured.

 

To put it in the most basic form weapons (in games) consist of several different key elements. These are Barrel, Chamber, Magazine, Frame, Upper Attachments, Under Attachments and Stock.

 

Think of the KOTOR lightsabers if you will. Each part defines a property and has modifiers. Each Part has 2 Variables: Material and Quality. Material defines how quickly the weapon degrades overall (and if the game also uses a complex repair system involving mechnichal spare parts, electronic spare parts etc, the material defines the basic resources needed for repair.) Quality means how good was the creator. Since most guns will be hand made from spares and old rifles and new machined parts, the quality of the manufacture has several grades:

 

Poor:

Cheap:

Jurry Rigged:

Handcrafted:

Precision Machined: +to accuracy, less spread

Computer Machined: +to accuracy, less spread, required frequent maintenance or degrades to precision machined, etc...

 

-Barrel (Lenght): The longer the barrel, the stable the gun and some extra range. However the gun becomes slower to respond and costs more ap to set up etc.

-Chamber: Defines what caliber the weapon uses. Calibers range from Light Pistol (.22 and like), Pistol (9mm/45acp equvalent) Heavy Pistol, Light Rifle, Rifle, Heavy Rifle, Anti Material. The heavier the caliber, the more reticule spreads and ap increases/ after first shot (when going rock and roll that is)

Magazine: How many rounds does your gun carry, the bigger the magazine, the less nimble the gun becomes. Some special chambers like bolt action can only take up to X bullets etc...

-Frame: What your firearm sits in. Normal frames don't have any modifiers. Damaged, Old, Jurry Rigged frames bestow penalties like more bullet spread, penalties to skill due to poor ergonomics etc. Modern (aka pre-war stored in vacuum packaging forgotten in a bunker or Bos or other Techgroup manufacture) frames generally allow you to attach more varied attachments.

Stock: (Or more precisely zeroing in) When you use a gun you need to adjust the sights and the general configuration a bit if you want to be accurate. Any "Random" weapon you pick up should give you some penalties until you spend some time to configure it for your needs. This is usually for the guns that you will carry around a long time, like a backup pistol or sniper rifle etc...

 

Attachments: These can generally be grouped in a few general groups:

Scopes: 2x, 4x, 8x, 10x The higher the magnification the more you zoom and cant see peripherials.

Sight: (nearly) Every weapon comes with a basic Ironsight. There are some relatively new add-ons that provide 2x magnification and a red dot effect but these are as I said relatively new toys.

Bipods, Tripods: I like heavy weapons in games but using some of these in the rambo fashion grows real old. I would love to see a deploy option to deploy the gun and have +"a lot" accuracy instead of -"a lot" penalty.

Silencers: The most basic silencer in the world is a plastic bottle. If you can screw it in, It will stop 1 shot from being heard at the next hill. I would love to see silencers that are both jurry rigged and modern in the game. The most stable silencers are actually specially crafted barrels that have integral silencer vents. I would love to see a way to add or remove silencers to the weapons.

Red/Green Dot lasers: Red dot lasers are generally good for SMGs and Pistols. Then again It shows where you are to the whole place The most basic one is a red laser pointer taped under the gun (and it generally works too). There are also the specialized ones but who would be crafting them after the war? Green Dot lasers are generally not green actually they are ultraviolet and show green on the first gen green and fuzzy low light vision goggles. They allow you to target without being seen but you need a LLVG or NVG. I don't really see anyone other than BOS and other PA users using these....

Underslugs: Gunnuts are gunnuts. You can find everything from a 40mm grenade launcher to cut down SMGs and Shotguns that are configured as an underslug for Assault rifles. Reasonable?no but they exist.

 

 

Anyway; when I am at a work-bench I would love to tinker with the weapons in my Inventory and my storage space (If i have one), stripping them down for spare parts and "maybe" building my own weapons from the parts that I have.

 

 

Energy Weapons, Heavy Weapons;

There are going to be some weapons that you cannot tinker with, without a whole lab or armory.

Energy weapons (and Flamers) in general have a Frame, a Stock, a battery and a Reaction Chamber & a Nozzle assembly

I would like to be able to fool with frames and sighting the gun to make it more mine (Like putting a plasma rifle on a M16-CAR15 frame ) . Maybe (If my science is high enough) fiddle with the battery controls to enable overcharged and 1/x charged shots. Maybe add some more cooling systems to the barrel that make the gun more cumbersome but allow me to fire quicker. And ultimately (With extreme science and repair and manuals) fiddle with the reaction chamber itself. Turbo Plasma Rifle? Hotshot Laser Rifle anyone?

 

I want the energy weapons to be VERY rare and nearly Relics. I want to feel satisfaction if I get my hands on it and craft it into a sniper cannon or support weapon intead of yawn another turbo plasma. Not worth the space....

 

 

 

The Gist of It: You might feel ok with seeing another HK or AK or M16 but I am tired of all these guns. Can't we have some zip-guns, piperifles and other homemade stuff that work for a change? FYI T-Rex was originally a gunnut's self crafted gun. Now it sells for 5k+

 

 

Edit: M3 is actually pretty good in this setting. It is cheap, easy to make and shoots. Thomson is a bloody ineffective gun compared to other guns of WW2 but M3 makes it (and several Japanese models) seem over average in comparison.

 

Oh boy Lahti . It reminds everyone why it is a bad idea to anger Finns. I still can't believe how they used those for well anything; from anti-sniper work to AA gun. Bloody marksman.

 

 

Edit 2: If you are really interested in how advanced gun smithing is used in games, I would recommend you to check JA2 1.13 for real guns and Ufo Afterlight for futuristic/ energy weapons.

 

 

 

Feasibility: The needed functions are already in the game (Item modifiers) and Obsidian did a pretty much similar thing with their KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 crafting systems. Granted, I added 1 more step (Breaking down to components and using those components as a base) but This is/can be done like their works on other titles. .

Edited May 12, 2009 by cronicler

[Aristes]

Geez, man, there is no need to go into that much detail! haha Just ribbing you.

 

I've got limited experience with firearms, and that was all at least a decade ago. On the range, I've fired a variety of pistols, including the .45, .22, and 9mm. Hunting, I've used anything from a scoped .22 rifle to a 30.06. However, I'm not really a gun nut. I guess, if I were, I would have kept the guns I had back in the day.

 

I haven't ever really gotten into modifying any guns. Probably the closest thing to modding I've done is taping the magazines together so I could flip them easier. It seems kind of stupid now, but I've never claimed to be very smart.

 

So, the upshot is that I'm impressed by the knowledge folks around here have and I think sporting a wide variety of firearms and melee weapons in the game would be cool. I especially like the descriptions if they're accurate and clever. However, if I read a description and it's wrong, I'm probably going to distrust the rest of the flavor text I see, which is a real bummer.

 

I would like to see the hand held nuke removed, but it's not a big deal for me.

 

Finally, I would like to have a more robust crafting system, not only for firearms but also for tinkering with other stuff. Obsidian has a history of enhancing the crafting component of existing game engines, and I'd really like to see that in New Vagas also.

[cronicler]

Well I kept the crafting needs and wants to a general tone and did not really go into specifics here. And also there are many free online sources and some free domain games where you can find a lot of Good and Accurate data.

There was even a site that balanced about 500+ real world guns on a 100ap (base) system and has the data-sheets available. :wink:

 

Anyway a detailed and simple crafting system (with variables that can be changed without too much trouble, Stat and skill requirement to access the recipe, combined relevant skill(s) level for outcomes and the list of outcomes.) With such a system in place... well It just falls to the modder's imagination for the recipe of Apple Pie or Restored David Harleyson Chopper.

 

Edit: And I have just spotted the first problem/bug. Should the Pc's natural stats be used to allow the recipes or should mentats etc induced stats be allowed to craft ubersciencegun?

Edited May 12, 2009 by cronicler

[TwinkieGorilla]

I feel sorry for Obsidian. No matter what they do, unless they completely convert the F3 engine to emulate the original isometric turn based originals purists will probably gripe about it as much as F3. Or not.

 

man. you know there's not a single poster on any site i'm familiar with who fits into this strawman category. in fact...if the people who keep saying this weren't so busy defending the game with their arms flailing they'd have the time to actually read the problems many individuals have with the game. SPECIAL, dialogue, C&C. fix these. hasn't a damn thing to do with cloning the original games.

 

Since the topic is on weapons, what did everyone think of F3's 'Fatman'?

 

idiotic, childish, and aimed at 'sploshun-happy kids at best. 200 years after "the bomb" and people are shooting mini-nukes at each other? great. good one Todd. "violence is ****in' funny!" yeah. good one, Todd.

Edited May 12, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[Llyranor]

You bloody freaking nerds.