Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Slowtrain]

I wouldn't call myself a gun nut, I jus think that a game that is so much about combat, should have better combat. If that is 90%of what it does; it should do that well.

 

Adding some more complexity to the firearms/ammunitions/upgrades and armor is one way to do that.

 

For me, personally.

[Aristes]

Let me be clear on the issue. I think arguing for more realism is generally good. It's just the way the debate is framed sometimes causes me to wonder. By and large, I'm distrustful of arguments that go something like, "FO3 is so terrible that Obsidian needs to fix it." I'm irritated by arguments that imply the aformentioned but don't say it outright.

 

If FO3 were a new title and intellectual property, I am convinced many folks arguing over the upcoming new game in the franchise wouldn't even be here. After all, you generally don't bother arguing over what's going to happen in new games in a franchise when you didn't like the first title.

 

However, I know that it kind of sucks on my part to try to impose my own take on your motives, so I try to have a reasonable discussion. It just seems that some of the stuff is so... I dunno... beyond the pale.

 

Some of it is probably heartfelt and genuine in regards to minor infractions that insult some players' sensibilities. I've always been irritated by all the crap sitting in the corridors of Rivet City. Why should that bother me more than the fact that I spent all that time gathering the mats to make rail guns but eventually threw them over because I was tired of the deterioration rate on the weapon? Why should the slow mo on VATS be more irritating than the fact that I could carry thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo? I don't know. I guess there's just no telling what will irritate you.

 

Nevertheless, the grocery list of complaints just starts to boggle my mind. I don't care that there were a large number of working terminals. Without drawing conclusions about the motives for complaining the number of terminals, I will state my own opinion that the number of terminals was just fine. They could put in less and I'd fine but, and this is the clincher, they could put in more and I wouldn't care.

 

I'm not a gun nut, although I have some experience with a variety of firearms. I don't have the depth and breadth of experience that many Fallout fans have, but I certainly have enough to say I'd appreciate a larger selection of weapons. In this regard, it's not a huge deal for me, but it certainly would enhance my gaming experience.

 

The fact that old constructs are still standing was a bit jarring to me. This is one of the things I actually found curious before I even read a complaint about it. Yeah, it somewhat bugged me. The nature of the wasteland some 200 years after the event bugged me. ...But Fallout has never been realistic. Unless the nuclear war was so devastating that it destroyed all humanity in the first place, the types of settlements would be far more advanced by the time of Fallout. The amount of food and how society functions is entirely unrealistic given the amount of existing technology. Hell, by the time of Fallout, there would be enough civilization to start full fledged wars all over again. So, I can understand complaining about the wooden buildings, but I just don't think it's some huge transgression.

 

Now, if you look at the three complaints above, I have no beef with one, I have a slight beef with another, and I fully agree as to the third. Some folks, however, appear to reach for any and every excuse to bash FO3. ...And that's what some of this is. It's not a discussion of what's to come in Fallout: New Vegas. It's Bethesda bashing with a veneer of NV discussion smeared on the top.

 

Good Lord, Sawyer cites that... whatever the hell we're calling it today... some french word or environmental prop placement or whatever.... anyhow, Sawyer cites that Bethesda did a good job using some of these things to enhance FO3 and even his word isn't good enough. Folks are all over that because, after all, Bethesda did it. ...And the bones wouldn't be there anymore. ...And certainly not in a wooden building. ...And, omg, there's a computer terminal in the bedroom!

 

I don't think this game is going to be hugely different from FO3 in terms of the engine and whatnot. I wouldn't mind a top down isometric game with great graphics and headshots for NPC dialogue. I won't mind another FO3 engine game either.

 

...But going after Bethesda will only marginalize your position. I'm serious. You should just leave FO3 out of the discussion and say:

 

"Aristes: Why not put in different calibers like real life? 5.56 light weight, man stopping but just tickles the heavy armored foes. 7.62; heavy as hell but can harm man size or armored no problem. .50 caliber or .303 or .308 or Casull... Very heavy very slow rate of fire very hard to control after fist shot. And kills anything.

Sure running back to your stash for bullets every other minute would be silly but carrying 5000+ bullets, 2000+ energy cells, 1000+ rockets gets out of control too. I know people hate real life examples but your average assistant heavy weapon: missile launcher crew carries about 5 or 7 RPG reloads at most. Sure this is a game but come on, can you imagine how much space 1000 rockets would take up? 20 rockets maybe as this is a game but 1000? and no I didn't really use heavy weapons and since I hunted around a lot they sort of got piled up I guess. I can accept that we shouldn't go as restrictive as RL but going too far in the other direction also distorts the gaming experience."

 

That's my take at least, because I actually think a lot of the ideas have merit. I just get stuck in defensive mode because, after all, I enjoyed the game. That doesn't mean I don't want improvement. Anyhow, I'm surprised this thread has been so flame free. I'll take a few flames and not hold a grudge, but I still find the nitpicking Beth bashing irritating because I think it ghettoizes our discussion and means it's easier to discard our arguments out of hand.

 

EDIT: GAAHHHH! WoT! Sorry, guys, I didn't mean go on that long.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Aristes

[Purkake]

I wouldn't call myself a gun nut, I jus think that a game that is so much about combat, should have better combat. If that is 90%of what it does; it should do that well.

 

Adding some more complexity to the firearms/ammunitions/upgrades and armor is one way to do that.

 

For me, personally.

 

And I just want it to be less about combat and more about story, setting and characters.

 

In Fallout 1/2 combat was an important part of the game, but it was always a means to an end. You didn't really have to fight.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Purkake

[cronicler]

Actually Purkake is right up to a point; we don't really need all the guns from JA2 1.13 (500+ Weapons containing nearly every caliber in use today last time I checked) but having somewhat detailed weapons and related stuff would be nice. It does not have to be too detailed but I would have liked to be able to add scopes, flashlights, laser pointers and other basic stuff. Maybe ability to modify my weapons a bit with Beta or C mags. Alternate ammo types like tracer, hollow point or Ap (don't think we could find really high tech ammo like AET or Glaser rounds in a PA setting. Nor would match ammo...)

 

Purk: I'm really with you on this sentiment. however with the shift to FPS and very unusable stealth game play (Compared to thief or deus ex stealth that is, not your average modern shooter stealth) the Combat part is more and more the rage. Heck I haven't really seen anything from the 3rd game or its expansions that didn't really try to sell itself by its combat. Sure I do hope that Obsidian can break these chains but if they can't (totally) break these modern and popular game play bits then I sure hope they make these parts a bit better.

 

Aristes will you stop editing in so much stuff in please? Just add in a new post! :wink:

Edited May 5, 2009 by cronicler

[Purkake]

Actually Purkake is right up to a point; we don't really need all the guns from JA2 1.13 (500+ Weapons containing nearly every caliber in use today last time I checked) but having somewhat detailed weapons and related stuff would be nice. It does not have to be too detailed but I would have liked to be able to add scopes, flashlights, laser pointers and other basic stuff. Maybe ability to modify my weapons a bit with Beta or C mags. Alternate ammo types like tracer, hollow point or Ap (don't think we could find really high tech ammo like AET or Glaser rounds in a PA setting...)

 

Purk: I'm really with you on this sentiment. however with the shift to FPS and very unusable stealth game play (Compared to thief or deus ex stealth that is, not your average modern shooter stealth) the Combat part is more and more the rage. Heck I haven't really seen anything from the 3rd game or its expansions that didn't really try to sell itself by its combat. Sure I do hope that Obsidian can break these chains but if they can't (totally) break these modern and popular game play bits then I sure hope they make these parts a bit better.

 

Fallout's stealth has always been a joke and I doubt that Obsidian can fix that. I would prefer more "talk your way through" stuff.

 

My point is that adding a scope or a flashlight or some other crazy stuff to my realistic plasma thrower wouldn't make the combat any more fun for me. Just like having a million different versions of the guns and ammo didn't make the combat in Mass Effect any better. If it does make it more enjoyable for you, great, but that is not a road I want Fallout to take and it shouldn't be the primary or even the secondary focus when developing a new Fallout game.

[Tigranes]

I'm sorry, but I already won you all in page 1:

 

It's a question of degrees, and what purpose is being served by these decisions. If reality is bent to an acceptable degree, masked decently in order to serve a specific gameplay/story/setting benefit, yeah, go for it. In this context, asking questions like "but this isn't the real world so what?" or "other games bend reality too right?" makes zero sense.

 

 

Surely we can move on beyond two monkeys wrangling each others' necks going NO ITS NOT REAL

 

Fallout's stealth has always been a joke and I doubt that Obsidian can fix that.

 

I wonder how stealth can be made more interesting in a relatively 'real world' setting. Certainly the introduction of disguises would be great and very Fallouty in properly 'civilised' areas; otherwise... gah, just bring in Thief's mechanics!

[Slowtrain]

I agree with Purkake also. If the combat is less important due to better story and characters, then there isn't really a need to beef up said combat. That would be fine with me.

 

But if the focus remains the same: combat, exploring, and more combat, then I would find the game more interesting if the combat was more interesting.

[cronicler]

Erm... Wait.... Second... Umm... Bluescreen....

No no no! please god no! I did not mean putting flashlights on plasma weapons or additional barrels on laser weapons! I just wanted some tinkering with normal ballistic weapons. How can you tinker with a plasma rifle? 100 science and repair and a lot of manuals maybe?

 

I tried to mean that if we are going to be stuck with this part of the game (and so far B. seems to be insistent on it) then I would really like some enhancements in this area too, not a gunz! moar gunz! aboVa all gunz! rant...

 

Tigranes: I would have love to see a game that uses Thief's stealth mechanics but even in that game with all the good Reactive AI you could have really weird things happen like a guy looking for you in 3rd floor and this fact alerting other guys at the other end of the house. Its stealth and AI mechanisims worked but were also prone to breakdowns a lot. They also required generally a lot of effort to produce a small game play area. I guess I am comparing every FPS game's voice acting to those in Thief 3 even this day because of this.

 

Fallout is a sandbox game so I guess this rules out Thief's stealth mechanics outright. Sure I would love to see some "missions" that you can take as a thief to rob places that use these kinds of mechanics but for the general game, these mechanics don't offer stable enough behaviour to employ with random locations.

Edited May 5, 2009 by cronicler

[TwinkieGorilla]

how about this for a groundbreaking idea which FO:NV could implement:

 

ammo is a physical entity and has WEIGHT!!!

 

 

OMGWTFOHNOES!!!!

[Slowtrain]

for me, a larger and more complex system of firearms and ammo and upgrades and armor simply gives me more possibilities to consider while planning for and engaging in combat.

 

The more possibilities that are open before me, the more interesting I wil find the game to play.

 

I tried playing a dedicated small guns character in FO3 and it was incredibly boring and unfun. It was like, why play this sort of character when I can play STALKER instead and actually have fun with the small gun combat.

[Slowtrain]

how about this for a groundbreaking idea which FO:NV could implement:

 

ammo is a physical entity and has WEIGHT!!!

 

 

OMGWTFOHNOES!!!!

 

One problem with that is that ammo does so little damage you have to carry thousands of rounds just to make the game work.

 

edit: even with a max big guns skill and Eugene, if I went on a dedicated minigun rampage, I would chew through 5000 rounds of 5mm pretty fast.

Edited May 5, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Purkake]

how about this for a groundbreaking idea which FO:NV could implement:

 

ammo is a physical entity and has WEIGHT!!!

 

 

OMGWTFOHNOES!!!!

 

I would prefer not having to carry around 5 copies of the same gun to fix it.

 

Ammo weight is pretty much a non-issue for me. At least it's better than infinite ammo.

[TwinkieGorilla]

this could be fixed by implementing varying effectiveness of ammo such as armor-piercing, etc. FO1 & 2 survived pretty well giving weight to all items and i always thought it was SO much more interesting to have to choose a "favorite" few weapons and specialize rather than being allowed to magically carry EVERYTHING i found.

[Slowtrain]

I would prefer not having to carry around 5 copies of the same gun to fix it.

 

 

OMG, yes. If there is 1 thing I would love to see, plz plz plz change the repair system. Either slow weapon and ammo degredation way down, eliminate it all together, or come up with a better system. HAving to carry around multiple copies of your armor and weapons is INCREDIBLY annoying. To me. Personally.

[Slowtrain]

this could be fixed by implementing varying effectiveness of ammo such as armor-piercing, etc. FO1 & 2 survived pretty well giving weight to all items and i always thought it was SO much more interesting to have to choose a "favorite" few weapons and specialize rather than being allowed to magically carry EVERYTHING i found.

 

 

When I play Big Gun chatrs, I never find myself in that position though. EVen with a 10 strength and Strong Back I am always pushing the carry limit and having to drop stuff and leave it behind.

 

WHy?

 

Because I have to carry 5 flipping spare miniguns for repair purposes that's why.

 

Simply too annoying.

[Purkake]

It still boggles my mind how they could come up with such an absurd system for repairing stuff.

 

Pulpy 50s future or not who repairs things with other things? The hammers in Oblivion weren't the most elegant way to do it, but at least it worked and made some sense.

[Slowtrain]

It still boggles my mind how they could come up with such an absurd system for repairing stuff.

 

Pulpy 50s future or not who repairs things with other things? The hammers in Oblivion weren't the most elegant way to do it, but at least it worked and made some sense.

 

 

I thought the ES hammers were silly, but they weren't nearly so annoying.

 

I really think that devs need to look at the idea of weapon and armor degradation and see if it really adds anything to the gameplay other than busy work that justfies a skill.

 

If it doesn't, then leave it out. I've played plenty of great games that has no weapon and armor degradtion.

 

I'm playing Wiz 8 right now. Nothing ever wears out in the game. ANd It doesn't detract from the fun.

[Tigranes]

What choo talkin' bout? Clearly half a minigun + half a minigun = whole minigun.

 

[Purkake]

What choo talkin' bout? Clearly half a minigun + half a minigun = whole minigun.

 

 

But what if it's the same half?

[Slowtrain]

Put one half on top and one half on the bottom. Its a minigun sandwich!

 

Perfect for holding iguana bits and sugar bombs.

[cronicler]

I think giving the player the ability to "destroy" the useless weapons to gather some resources and then letting him to use those minimally weighing resources to fix his stuff would have been the best option. Sure if you want to make it complex, create different resources like electronic spare parts, mechanichal spare parts and so on and make different items require different parts to be repaired (amount based on your repair skill)

 

Also there is a little thing called condition and then there is another thing called cleanness. A weapon (more precisely the barrel) does not really become useless in 20 shots unless you are using a monster caliber with extra heavy load. I could accept rifles needing some maintenance (with 1 or 2 spare parts) and cleaning every 100 bullets or so and a real heavy maintenance every 1000 bullets requiring like 10 or 20 parts. ATM the weapons just become useless after... 50 shots and also the ineffectiveness of them aggravates this problem. (Coupled with the weird way skills work and all...)

[Trenitay]

It makes a double ended minigun of course.

[Slowtrain]

Also there is a little thing called condition and then there is another thing called cleanness. A weapon (more precisely the barrel) does not really become useless in 20 shots unless you are using a monster caliber with extra heavy load. I could accept rifles needing some maintenance (with 1 or 2 spare parts) and cleaning every 100 bullets or so and a real heavy maintenance every 1000 bullets requiring like 10 or 20 parts. ATM the weapons just become useless after... 50 shots and also the ineffectiveness of them aggravates this problem. (Coupled with the weird way skills work and all...)

 

I was watching a blurb on AKs on the Military Channel and it talked about how you cna clean them by taking your bootlaces, knotting them up, dipping them in oil and then yanking them through the barrel. That's clean enough for an AK-47!

 

 

A little creativity like that would be cool.

[Gizmo]

I'm just saying that it was never meant to be taken as seriously as you apparently are taking it. The Fallout world has always been tongue in cheek with all the crazy laser weapons, 50s super mutants and well-pressed jumpsuits.

Sure it was ~in a way. The weird stuff was to break up the oppressiveness and instill a sence of "anything can happen ~out there in the undiscovered watses... (IE. Outside of town)". Fallout had strange kooky aspects, but they fit the setting. An example of what does not fit a given setting, is Gandalf in Helm's Deep, exhausting his spells on the orcs and resorting to an AK-47 pulled out from the folds of his robe ~that breaks suspension of disbelief... Supermutants in Fallout do not ~even Fire Gekkos do not (but they push it close ).

 

Fallout was not a free for all 50's carnival hour where anything goes and folks get up after a nuclear blast.

 

Vampires don't fit the setting and break suspension of disbelief for example, as does any essential NPC.

 

This new perk "Puppies" is absurd break; Dogmeat's value was that he was a wicked pooch with a killer bite, but was still vulnerable and needed to be protected ~with that perk he becomes disposable and infinitely replaceable. ~what a crock...

Edited May 6, 2009 by Gizmo

[cronicler]

Erm, Ak 47s are really an exception to the general weapon needs to be honest. There are tons of examples where an 47 was subjected to real idiotic conditions like having a tank run over it or similar extreme things and the gun still managed to fire somehow. Sure it sucks beyond 250 meters and the ammo weighs a ton but it is the ultimate form in soldier proof at the moment.