Britain sends 1000 more troops to Afghanistan, Australia sends 500 more

[Humodour]

Well, with these being just the most recent in a string of troop increases from NATO and allies, it looks like Obama pulled off the "convince allies" part. Now it's time to see how the troop surge and narrower strategy shift pans out (training Afghanistani soldiers and police, and economic-political stability, rather than full democracy).

 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5013871,00.html

[Morgoth]

Yeah, this will make a big change, sure, whatever.

[Humodour]

Yeah, this will make a big change, sure, whatever.

 

?

 

All troop increases combined, the effective troop numbers will more than double their current number. Combined with a strategy overhaul how can you possibly think that nothing will change (whether for better or worse)? Ignorant.

[Hurlshort]

This is really good news. Afghanistan deserves a better governing body than the Taliban.

[Kaftan Barlast]

You could go in there with a million men, but the second you leave the warlords will turn up again to run the show. Once a country crumbles to pieces like Afghanistan did, its so hard to bring civilisation back that it borders on the impossible. Its been 30 years since they had any kind of stability, so vast majority of the people have gotten to used to chaos that they dont know anything else. Brining civilisation and order to Afghanistan is like trying to get corruption out of Latin America, its just ingrained into the mindset of the people.

[Morgoth]

You could go in there with a million men, but the second you leave the warlords will turn up again to run the show. Once a country crumbles to pieces like Afghanistan did, its so hard to bring civilisation back that it borders on the impossible. Its been 30 years since they had any kind of stability, so vast majority of the people have gotten to used to chaos that they dont know anything else. Brining civilisation and order to Afghanistan is like trying to get corruption out of Latin America, its just ingrained into the mindset of the people.

This.

 

Afghanistan is a lost cause, why wasting ressources on it?

[Humodour]

Kaftan: I have a feeling we're in Afghanistan for the long haul. Well, if something good comes of it (Afghanistani democracy), at least it will have been worth it.

[Hurlshort]

You could go in there with a million men, but the second you leave the warlords will turn up again to run the show. Once a country crumbles to pieces like Afghanistan did, its so hard to bring civilisation back that it borders on the impossible. Its been 30 years since they had any kind of stability, so vast majority of the people have gotten to used to chaos that they dont know anything else. Brining civilisation and order to Afghanistan is like trying to get corruption out of Latin America, its just ingrained into the mindset of the people.

This.

 

Afghanistan is a lost cause, why wasting ressources on it?

 

Are you guys being serious?

 

I didn't realize there was so much moral bankruptcy here.

[Morgoth]

You could go in there with a million men, but the second you leave the warlords will turn up again to run the show. Once a country crumbles to pieces like Afghanistan did, its so hard to bring civilisation back that it borders on the impossible. Its been 30 years since they had any kind of stability, so vast majority of the people have gotten to used to chaos that they dont know anything else. Brining civilisation and order to Afghanistan is like trying to get corruption out of Latin America, its just ingrained into the mindset of the people.

This.

 

Afghanistan is a lost cause, why wasting ressources on it?

 

Are you guys being serious?

 

I didn't realize there was so much moral bankruptcy here.

What has that to do with moral? I already forgot why there're even troops in Afghanistan. Oh let me guess. Some terrorists threatening worlds safety or some other bs. Or was it about drugs? It doesn't matter. That place will never improve.

[Hurlshort]

So we just write off an entire nation of people?

 

Here is a very brief history of Afghanistan -

 

In the 80's, Russia occupied it. The US funded rebel Islamic groups (Osama Bin Laden being one) to keep the USSR busy. Eventually Russia pulled out. The Taliban took over during the instability, creating a terrible extremist government group. In the 70's and 80's, Afghanistan had seen progress and modernization. Under the Taliban, women were forced to stay at home and the rich history and culture of the region was attacked as idolatry. The Taliban went as far as blowing up 2000 year old statues. It was a foreign government trying to erase the native history of the people.

 

The US went in after 9/11 under the pretense that much of Al Quaeda was being sheltered in Afghanistan by the Taliban.

 

The real problem isn't us being there, it is in how we execute our occupation. With the fall of the Taliban has come the rise of local warlords and a massive drug trade. This needs to be brought under control. Pulling out of a situation that we created is about as morally bankrupt as it gets, and I'm glad to see that multiple countries don't share your sense of morality.

[Humodour]

What has that to do with moral? I already forgot why there're even troops in Afghanistan. Oh let me guess. Some terrorists threatening worlds safety or some other bs. Or was it about drugs? It doesn't matter. That place will never improve.

 

Thanks for demonstrating your immense ignorance of the situation in Afghanistan.

[Morgoth]

What has that to do with moral? I already forgot why there're even troops in Afghanistan. Oh let me guess. Some terrorists threatening worlds safety or some other bs. Or was it about drugs? It doesn't matter. That place will never improve.

 

Thanks for demonstrating your immense ignorance of the situation in Afghanistan.

Oh, like you really care about Afghanistans well being?

[Humodour]

What has that to do with moral? I already forgot why there're even troops in Afghanistan. Oh let me guess. Some terrorists threatening worlds safety or some other bs. Or was it about drugs? It doesn't matter. That place will never improve.

 

Thanks for demonstrating your immense ignorance of the situation in Afghanistan.

 

Oh, like you really care about Afghanistans well being?

 

Is it so surprising that not everybody is as callous and selfish as you?

[Trenitay]

Why don't you care Morgoth?

Edited April 29, 2009 by awsomeness

[Morgoth]

Don't be such hypocrites. If a bomb blows up in Bagdhad or some warlords manage to destabilize some regions in Afghanistan, nobody, except the people involved, really care. I'm just surprised by the reactions people showed by sending 700 new British soldiers into Afghanistan would make feel them any better.

[Hurlshort]

Don't be such hypocrites. If a bomb blows up in Bagdhad or some warlords manage to destabilize some regions in Afghanistan, nobody, except the people involved, really care. I'm just surprised by the reactions people showed by sending 700 new British soldiers into Afghanistan would make feel them any better.

 

Actually I care about that very much. I can't do much about it, unfortunately, but there is some comfort in knowing that countries are attempting to help with these issues.

 

That is the human thing to do.

[Humodour]

Don't be such hypocrites. If a bomb blows up in Bagdhad or some warlords manage to destabilize some regions in Afghanistan, nobody, except the people involved, really care.

 

I certainly care. It pains me when I hear about such stories. I certainly try not to think about them too much because I can't do anything to fix them, but I care.

 

So when it comes down to a choice between doing something, or supporting those who can, and not giving a flying **** like you, guess which I choose?

 

Once I've finished my degree I plan to spend at least a year overseas doing aid work (South America most likely). Where do aid workers fit into your self-centred worldview? Do they all have some secret ulterior motive for risking their lives to help people they don't even know, because they couldn't possibly actually care about those people?

Edited April 29, 2009 by Krezack

[Trenitay]

@Morgoth

 

I'd like to know why you think nobody cares. Are we all faking it for publicity or something?

Edited April 29, 2009 by awsomeness

[Hurlshort]

I think Morgoth is just putting a show on to make his internet personality seem tough. I've never met someone in the real world that just didn't care at all about others unless they've developed some deep seeded discrimination against the group.

[Gfted1]

Wow, you guys are piling the self righteous BS knee deep in here.

[Walsingham]

Afghanistan can certainly get better. The Afghans I've met all want it to get better. However, what they need as much as troops is roads, electricity, infrastructure, government probity. They need accountants as much as gunships. It's a mess, and an uphill struggle. But it certainly ought to be done. Mostly because if we are to regard ourselves as existing on a level higher than animals then we have a duty to respond to fellow humans in trouble. That may be quaint, and it may be 30% BS, but for some inexplicable reason I find it more palatable than shoving my head up my rear and pretending that makes me intellectually superior.

[Hurlshort]

Obama mentioned that civil engineering corp when he took office, I think that will be a huge help if implemented properly. It's unfortunate that so many contractors willing to go into these places are only doing it for a big paycheck, meaning they are more concerned with self-interests than actual progress.

 

I agree that troops aren't the best answer here, they tend to make a lousy police force, which is what is really needed to stifle the local warlords. But it is better than no police at all.

[Brdavs]

Irrespecitve of the motive (I`m with Gfted1 on that one btw lol), there is one tncy wincy problen in afghanistan. The same one that`s pestering Iraq infact, just worse, far worse.

 

Well 2 problems actually.

 

a) there really isnt an afghani nation. Not really there isnt. Really.

and

b) the whole notion of "nation building (by force)" is dead set to go down as one of the more pompus historical blunders. Next to the lebensraum one.

 

 

Afghanis are not afghanis, they`re tribal people. Say it with me: tribal people. And there are so many tribes there that they make Iraq look friggin homogeneous. And those tribes live tribal lives, with their own power structure, their own customs/laws and in generally their own way of life. There is no history of central identity and power other than that artificially created by foreign powers. You say they need accountants just as much as gunships... Like the millions of people living a very "primitive"/down with nature traditional life give or ever will give a toss about the accountants that we import.

 

Best we can honestly hope so, if we cut all the hypocritical BS, is to "stabilise" the situation to a degree that the central government, which is btw honestly nothing more than one then militia we backed going in 8 years ago, wont collapse. We will do that either via appeasing all the local "warlords" (lol, @ the warlords term for the situation, maaking it as if taking out 3-4 nutjobs will change things) or via securing the "governments" position via force. Ushering in a "representatory" regime according to our taste. And for PR purposes we`ll be able to feel proud at footage from the 4 big cities come election day. Other than that, forget it.

 

Might come as a shocker but our suburban idilla may not be the epiffany of a wet dream to everyone on this planet.

 

 

Afhganistan democracy (forced down at gunpoint atleast) is not a lost cause since it never was a viable cause. One would have thought history had shown us that even pre 2001.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Brdavs

[Hurlshort]

Who said anything about accountants? I mentioned engineers and Wals said they need roads and electricity.

 

I understand what you are saying about the tribal divisions. But these types of things can be overcome in time. A national identity takes time to establish, and it isn't helping that on one side you have anti-western clerics preaching at the people about evil westerners, and then on the other side you have westerners trying to force certain ideals upon the people. Realistically they need a strong Afghani figure to take the lead here, one that can work with the West while not looking like a puppet.

[Walsingham]

I made the comment about accountants. Accountants are the ones who cut corruption by auditing things. I say send in theslug.

 

I agree that Afghanistan isn't a nation, but you surely can't eb serious when you say that nations aren't built by force. How the hell do you think any nation is created? Britain, the United States, even Russia?

 

I ought to apologise for taking such an aggressive tone, but I know a few Afghans, my friends are risking their lives to help them. So it annoys me when people are defeatist having nothing to lose through perseverance, besides an intellectual pose.