Chinese step up activity

[Killian Kalthorne]

And treating them as our allies accomplish what? How's the human rights record in China? Has Tibet been freed from China's tyrannical rule? Have China given its people the full right to worship whatever religion they please openly? The carrot has failed, Walsh. They are the enemy.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If we had nothing to do with China, our standard of living would be lower, but our economy would be a lot healthier.

[Trenitay]

We don't need more enemies than we already have.

[Killian Kalthorne]

We don't need more enemies than we already have.

Since China has always been our enemy the number of our enemies haven't changed.

[Wrath of Dagon]

We don't need more enemies than we already have.

You may not believe in making enemies, but enemies believe in you.

[Enoch]

What ol' Sandy is missing is how a more aggressive stance would actually change anything about Chinese oppression of its people.

 

Two options:

 

1) Talk to them and trade with them: Gets you an oppressive Chinese regime that is making more money (as are you), but that is focusing its efforts on commercial development and is extraordinarily unlikely to stir the pot internationally so that they don't risk endangering the success of their exports.

 

2) Shun them: Gets you an oppressive Chinese regime that is poorer, but that is focusing its efforts on military development because it feels like the rest of the world is allayed against it, and is quite likely to provoke international incidents through aggressive behavior.

 

 

Viscy's conclusion is apparently that things have worked so beautifully with U.S.-North Korean relations that we should definitely try it again with a country that is 100 times as large and as dangerous!

[julianw]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090313/ap_on_...hina_us_economy

 

The communist party is warning US against radical fiscal policies...

 

K_K/Sand: China and US are already sleeping together. China is already trapped by US debts so they got to keeping buying them to keep the dollar strong. Your 'enemy' is financing Obama's stimulus package in case you didn't notice.

[Wrath of Dagon]

@enoch

Well, looking at historical parallels, kind of Rome and the Barbarians situation, don't you think?

 

Edit: Yes, Putin was warning against too much socialism, you know the devil is feeling awfully chilly right now.

 

Edit2: China may not be an outright enemy right now, but they're no friend either. Who provided nuclear tech to Pakistan and thus to Iran? Who's keeping North Korea afloat? Chinese stab us in the back every chance they get.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[julianw]

Well, there is bound to be backstabbing when not all your interests align. That doesn't change the fact that both countries are stuck together in a sinking boat and neither's economy can survive without the other's.

[Gorgon]

What ol' Sandy is missing is how a more aggressive stance would actually change anything about Chinese oppression of its people.

 

Two options:

 

1) Talk to them and trade with them: Gets you an oppressive Chinese regime that is making more money (as are you), but that is focusing its efforts on commercial development and is extraordinarily unlikely to stir the pot internationally so that they don't risk endangering the success of their exports.

 

2) Shun them: Gets you an oppressive Chinese regime that is poorer, but that is focusing its efforts on military development because it feels like the rest of the world is allayed against it, and is quite likely to provoke international incidents through aggressive behavior.

 

 

Viscy's conclusion is apparently that things have worked so beautifully with U.S.-North Korean relations that we should definitely try it again with a country that is 100 times as large and as dangerous!

Well, we have been doing the dialogue and trade approach for nigh on 20 years. The Chinese don't seem to keen on the the representative democracy/free trade formula which we have come to believe, perhaps in our own arrogance, is where all countries will end up eventually with globalization and western cultural influence. Not that a hard stance would be any more fruitful, but there is an argument to be made that our engagement with the Chinese does nothing at all to steer them towards democracy or human rights. They are content to do things their own way, which is as much as you would expect from anyone.

[Walsingham]

I have to say, without wanting to shoot myself in the next purge, that uncontrolled capitalism is basically gangsetrism, which is what China seems to have right now. The Party are more like a huge evil corporation.

[Gorgon]

Well yes, the notion that Capitalism invariably increases equality is bollocks.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ah, uncontrolled capitalism would be anarchy, not what China has right now. Communism is basically gangsterism, with only one gang. As far as China, my favorite characterization of their system is Market Stalinism.

[Gorgon]

Unregulated Capitalism is not anarchism, that would insinuate a lack of control in other areas. It's likable to the gilded age in the US for instance.

 

Random google link

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carnegie/gildedage.html

[Azarkon]

Well yes, the notion that Capitalism invariably increases equality is bollocks.

 

It doesn't, but it raises everyone's standards.

 

If you want more equality, you have to go down the socialist route. Socialism inevitably leads to bigger government, and bigger government leads to the risk of tyranny.

[Gorgon]

That depends, I think you are reading too much into the word, I didn't intend to subdivide into personal liberty versus redistribution of wealth.

 

Surely you can't have equality without human and civil rights.

[Azarkon]

Ah, so you're saying capitalism doesn't lead to liberalism. Well, that's yet to be seen. China's only been at this for 30 years, and the cracks are already showing.

[Gorgon]

I dunno, they seem to compensate rather well by banging the war drums. To me the notion that Capitalism develops liberty and democracy from economic liberalism is ideology, not established fact.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Gorgon

[Azarkon]

I agree that it's not a given. But there's a good argument behind it: market capitalism requires that you open up your country, and once you open up your country and your people see how other people in the world live, they begin to yearn for those benefits. At first, they'll focus on the material difference, and aim to achieve living standards close to that of the West's. Material wealth, in turn, is a form of empowerment, which generates a well-educated middle class that is no longer content with bending to the government's will and whim. This is followed by the gradual liberalization of society, which might see several setbacks as the government attempts to hold onto power, but having experienced greater freedoms, people will not want to go back.

 

China is still at the material wealth stage. The emerging stage, if Korea and Japan were of any indication, is the nationalism stage, during which the government whips up a fever about the country's unity and greatness. Not properly controlled, this could lead to expansionism and war, but at the same time, it could also lead to greater internal cohesion as national identity becomes an alternative to class identity. Should China get past this stage, then its people will begin to realize that in a capitalist world order, the world's interests are also China's own. This could then lead to globalism and further liberalization.

 

The biggest risk right now, imo, is the collapse of global capitalism. If the Western world order disintegrates, then there'll be a free for all in the resulting vacuum. That's when Chinese nationalism can get really nasty and dangerous.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Azarkon

[Trenitay]

I say we go with Thomas Hobbes' theories on government.

[Killian Kalthorne]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090313/ap_on_...hina_us_economy

 

The communist party is warning US against radical fiscal policies...

 

K_K/Sand: China and US are already sleeping together. China is already trapped by US debts so they got to keeping buying them to keep the dollar strong. Your 'enemy' is financing Obama's stimulus package in case you didn't notice.

 

I know. That is why I am against it.

[Walsingham]

I think China's found a dark but manageable option. They know that peopel don't really care if everyone else is oppressed as long as they are dishing it out. The communist party/corporation system works because it offers the chance of climbing the ladder. the Chinese blend that with free enterprise. Shazam!

 

I'm talking drivel.