Martial Arts Skill

[SteveThaiBinh]

btw, is Thorton NSA or CIA agent or what?

He works for Nike.

[J.E. Sawyer]

More like Adidas.

[kirottu]

btw, is Thorton NSA or CIA agent or what?

 

I hope it's not CIA... I don't want to play member of Most Dumb****ed Intelligence Agency of History

 

Don

[Jason Bourne]

As additional perspective on Eisler, we frequent the same MA e-mail list. When writing his books (or discussing matters of MA) he regularly consults with a group of fiftyish people bearing credentials including 30+ years in the martial arts, degrees in psychology and law, ex-special forces, law enforcement, self-defense instructors, competition fighters, bouncers, mercenaries, etc.

 

He doesn't strike me as the sort to make a claim unless he's done his homework, for what it's worth.

 

Told ya I wasn't lying. I mean, I don't believe things like this happen in real life that often, if not, ever. Probably like what? A couple of times throughout the Clandestine's history? That's what the CIA teaches you if you're ever in bad situation. They teach J-turns, weapons training, fighting, etc.

 

Personally, I'd give up my life in a heartbeat if the CIA had a similiar program to Black Briar, like in the Bourne movies. Brainwash me, train me in multiple languages, learn to fight and evade........AWESOME!

Edited September 9, 2008 by Jason Bourne

[Ol'JB]

I've got to say having looked at American Kenpo on Youtube I'm a little worried that the CQC animations are gonna be a little too grand and not practical looking, question to the devs...

 

Are there gonna be disarm moves, arm drags, hand trapping etc? Or just lots ofkicks

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's actually almost entirely upper body strikes to the torso, neck, arms, and head. Various closed fist, open hand, ridge hand, spear hand, elbow strikes, etc. There are a few kicks in there, but they are not common.

[Ol'JB]

It's actually almost entirely upper body strikes to the torso, neck, arms, and head. Various closed fist, open hand, ridge hand, spear hand, elbow strikes, etc. There are a few kicks in there, but they are not common.

 

ok, sounds cool, didn't like the idea of Guiles flash kick like you say, so its gonna be combination type takedowns? are there gonna be disarms a la solid snake/Jason Bourne ?

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Also, on the subject of improvised weapons, there's a great book by Marc MacYoung called "Pool Cues, Beer Bottles," yada yada yada.

[Ol'JB]

I'm really looking forward to this game, I just want to know that the CQC is gonna be on point, I'm sure with cliched outfits to wear and safehouses across the globe you cant really go wrong, the shooting and storyline sounds good as well, only thing I'm worried about is not being able to gun strip terrorists or having a nonrealistic system

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Hmm, I think the final call will be when we see it in action, whether on video or in-game. My personal inclination based on the screenshots is to say they probably took the unrealism further than was absolutely necessary, but until we see the actual moves executed we won't know for sure.

 

It won't really affect my purchase decision either way, I'll just cringe less if I'm wrong about the particular school of Kenpo on display.

[random n00b]

Random Fact of Gaming #42:

 

Realism ≠ Fun

[Ol'JB]

I just think given the choice I'd tather take out a room of armed thugs with some kind of hand trap into arm lock into human shield, hit someone else while covered, break the guys neck, grab another guy twist his arm and use his gun on someone else etc etc,

 

that or one spinning bird kick to take out the whole room.............................. no

[random n00b]

How's that "realistic"?

 

"Realistic" would be tossing in a 'nade, and closing the door. Not quite so glamourous, to be sure. Hence my comment.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Random Fact of Gaming #42:

 

Realism ≠ Fun

 

That argument is typically used with mechanics that have a significant effect on gameplay (for example, the infinite ammo discussion). My understanding is that the AP martial arts are not under enough control by the player so that it matters whether Thornton does this move or that. Thus, in this case, realism = aesthetic preference.

 

Ol'JB is actually suggesting significant elaboration on the system itself (allowing you to use enemies against each other in addition to you against them), which would be cool solely based on gameplay function but perhaps out of the scope of AP for now.

 

I think most of the preliminary "eeks" come from people whose preferences lean toward the realism end of the spectrum. There are things that could, provided you *never* make any mistakes (which is the unrealistic part), work a few times (not as something you use against hundreds of guys, because you'd make mistakes and die). Then there are moves that, even if you are Joe Frazier meets Dan Inosanto, simply wouldn't solve the problem before the other guy gets you. This is the more vs. less realism consideration; and it's mostly a visual style preference when the CQC is fairly simple in execution. Some people fall into to one category, some fall into the other. There are a few alarm button pressed so far for the "slightly higher" realism camp.

 

1) No close-combat weaponry. Obviously, a knife would stand a better chance than fists, but it is simpler to just use one set of moves from a dev standpoint.

2) Striking-based. If I punch somebody who has a gun, his first reaction will be to shoot me unless I either grab the weapon arm or hit him so hard he's 100% unconscious on his feet. Good luck with that second one (check the CQC screenshots). Also, leaving a guy somewhat incapacitated on the ground but with a gun in hand is kind of an "eh" thing that even most spy movies don't do anymore.

 

I think even the naysayers can generally agree that Obsidian's decision is by no means "wrong" or "bad," it's just not quite what we'd expect from a "JB" inspired title unless we're talking old-school Bond with the Judo chop.

[Ol'JB]

Couldn't have said it better myself, literally.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

And in a "ripped from the headlines" note, a man applies CQC to disarm and kill/severely injure four attackers. I believe he's now facing a life sentence, but that's not the point.

 

NYC bouncer convicted of a third murder

Published: 11/21/08, 8:25 PM EDT

http://tinyurl.com/57c46p

 

NEW YORK (AP) - A bouncer already sentenced to lengthy prison terms for two

New York City murders has been convicted of shooting another man dead and

wounding three others outside a Manhattan nightclub.

 

A jury on Friday found 32-year-old Stephen Sakai (suh-KEYE') guilty of

murder, attempted murder and assault. He faces at least 15 years in prison

at his Dec. 15 sentencing hearing. He is serving two sentences of 25 years

to life in prison for the previous murder convictions.

 

Sakai testified he feared he would die during a fight outside a Chelsea

nightclub in May 2006. Sakai said he took a gun off one of his four victims

and started firing.

 

One of the injured was partially paralyzed.

[Pop]

1) No close-combat weaponry. Obviously, a knife would stand a better chance than fists, but it is simpler to just use one set of moves from a dev standpoint.

Is your complaint that there are no CQC weapons? Because there are, at least according to Josh.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Heh, keep in mind that, at the time of that post, they had not released that tidbit of info. And that was really more of a side point, anyway.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Cl_Flushentityhero

[Pop]

I'm curious as to whether or not martial arts will be viable as a primary means of combat. From the way Josh had written about it, it seemed like you'd be using unarmed mainly in conjunction with stealth, as in, you use unarmed when you want to avoid combat. If I put my Thorton's skill points primarily into unarmed combat will I end up gimping him?

 

I figured that a sensible "power" associated with unarmed combat, assuming it could be viably used as a primary skill, would be some means of closing the distance between Thorton and his target, a sprint or somesuch, during the use of which you don't take damage. Obviously we can see from the dev diary that the levels are often expansive enough that you could stand to hurt yourself just running straight at a guy who knows you're there.

 

It's also worth asking if there are enemies who will use CQC against you, or at least, characters for whom CQC is recommended.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I'm curious as to whether or not martial arts will be viable as a primary means of combat. From the way Josh had written about it, it seemed like you'd be using unarmed mainly in conjunction with stealth, as in, you use unarmed when you want to avoid combat. If I put my Thorton's skill points primarily into unarmed combat will I end up gimping him?

 

This was something I was wondering as well . . .

 

I figured that a sensible "power" associated with unarmed combat, assuming it could be viably used as a primary skill, would be some means of closing the distance between Thorton and his target, a sprint or somesuch, during the use of which you don't take damage.

 

 

 

Another possibility is that, if the AI is generally proactive in going after Thornton, using cover to corner camp might be effective. Quantum of Solace (the game) let you do quick dashes between cover that were pretty effective at closing the distance.

 

It's also worth asking if there are enemies who will use CQC against you, or at least, characters for whom CQC is recommended.

 

I can hope. While Obs mentioned that they didn't want CQC to be 'set pieces' like in the Bourne Conspiracy, you have to admit that the season 2 finale of 24 (in the LA Coliseum) was pretty badass. Also, since the animations are not gun-based from what I've seen, it lends itself well to fisticuffs.

 

One possible technical difficulty is that, IME, melee enemies in shooters are almost always scripted encounters or mysteriously have four times as much health as gun-toting enemies (or both). This leads me to believe that it's difficult to make AI that will competently ambush the player at corners.

[Noxt]

I just played the Bourne Conspiracy demo and I'm wondering how similar will the CQC system? How does AP's CQC compare to these points?

 

The good and bad in the Bourne Conspiracy CQC system, in my opinion:

 

+Cool takedowns

+Takedowns while sprinting

+Gun disarms when getting close

+Multi-person takedowns. Taking down three people is extremely nice, just if there wasn't so much generic hitting before it happens.

+Variety in takedowns depending where you are and what's happening around you

+People attacking you and you being able to block the attacks when you're fighting with someone. However! It would be a lot nicer if the other enemies attacked more frequently and you automatically blocked them and perhaps let some strikes go through your guard.. depending on your characters CQC skill. Now, in Bourne C, the enemies only attack once in a while.

+Blocking. Different blocking animations to different weapons, and instead of staying in the same block position all the time with your hands up like in most games.. you dodge and do some other stuff.

 

-Boss fights. Gosh, they suck. How on Earth could some old prison dude fight on the level of Jason Bourne and take A LOT of punishment? Or for that matter, almost any of the other dudes they come up with? If the boss fights would be done intelligently (e.g from the movie: Jason vs another agent of Treadstone made sense as their skill levels are close) they would be OK, but just making "officers" or the "target" of the mission tough sucks and makes no sense.

 

-Auto-lock on in melee range that you can't get away from(as far as I know, could be wrong.. but it's still bad when implemented like that).. Especially in the 2nd demo map where the train comes. You get locked in a fight, you can't avoid the gun shots or the train and so on. Just.. no.

 

-Adrenaline meter. Seriously, I hate it. It makes no sense that when you come into close combat, Bourne disarms the enemy and could end the fight right there.. instead you need to start throwing generic punches over and over until you can do a takedown. I HATE this in hand to hand combat and almost all games do it. You must do boring **** that makes no sense to get to do the good stuff.. this has also been criticised on reviews and only the nice takedowns save some of it.

 

-"Reaction" stuff. Press A or B or Y or X and you do this or that... Gosh. I rarely play on the XBox and it takes some time to remember the buttons and especially to be able to reactively push them suddenly. It's also boring. I don't think it's a good system at all. EDIT: Though.. after a while, you get used to it and on the second playthrough I didn't miss anything but there's still a better way to do this

 

-Too much repetition; why does he always have to do the same move if there's something you can hit their head on to? There's pretty much different moves if you're not close to a wall or someone isn't shooting at you.. I wish they would have mixed it up a bit.

 

-Still, not enough variety IMO when one of the trademark things of the Bourne movies is the CQC..

 

There's probably more, but that's all I can remember now.

 

So, IMO, there should be a skill tree or something that makes Michael(I hope that's the name of Alpha Protocol's protagonist..) more efficient in, say, multi-person takedowns or somesuch rather than you having to hit some keys as quickly as you can. I would also like a lot of the "mistakes" in the Bourne game to be dealt with simply making them automatic.. because honestly, I don't demand that much interaction from the fights as making it satisfactory for me isn't quite possible. So it would be best if I press a key and he does the move(s) without me having to repeatedly press something/press something as quick as possible/pray to God it's going to work.

Edited November 28, 2008 by Noxt

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showt...15&start=15

 

Sawyer posted a couple times in the "Proper CQC" thread, which should answer some of your questions.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=avtQ_dxmZLU

 

Another CQC application that is very quick and effective. Unfortunately, the martial skill is only matched by the poor judgment on display.

[mkreku]

I still say they should imitate Fedor's style to 100%.

 

Two pictures:

 

 

Fedor vs. Hong Man Choi. No, that is not photoshopped. Hong Man IS that big.

 

And this is how it ended..

 

 

Fedor by flying armbar!

[Noxt]

And what's the purpose of those pictures