Jediphile Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) At least you concede the point. Intelligence check - Failed. No, I merely don't see the point of arguing if you persist that your opinion equals the truth without providing a basis for why that should be considered the case. I could persist myself, but to what avail? And if you persist, the result is more likely to be for me to not respond to your posts in the future - as I didn't both above and in the MMO discussion- than it is for me to concede anything. Edited July 25, 2008 by Jediphile Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 At least you concede the point. Intelligence check - Failed. No, I merely don't see the point of arguing if you persist that your opinion equals the truth without providing a basis for why that should be considered the case. I've explained twice exactly why my position is correct. As a big proponent of skills I pretty much never start out with a char below 14 int at this point. Still I recognize that adding level-up attribute points to INT effectively wastes 7 levels to get a +1 modifier. That's not a sound strategy, no matter how you spin it. Why you find me pointing that out to be offensive is beyond me. Still you haven't been able to back your position because it is faulty. I've already discussed how you can pass every INT check in the game without wasting attribute points. If you choose to do so anyway that is your prerogative (and clearly you can get by regardless of your build), but that doesn't make it any less wasteful or unnecessary. I'm very familiar with d20 rules and the Kotor engine and I prefer to maximize my characters. If you don't that's up to you. I could persist myself, but to what avail? And if you persist, the result is for me to not respond to your posts in the future - as I didn't both above and in the MMO disccion - than it is for me to concede anything.This is the debating equivalent of plugging your ears, closing your eyes and throwing a temper tantrum. Honestly why even post on a message board if you can't take scrutiny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I've explained twice exactly why my position is correct. No, that is not correct; you have only explained why you believe you are correct - never has definitive proof been provided. "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I've explained twice exactly why my position is correct. No, that is not correct; you have only explained why you believe you are correct - never has definitive proof been provided. Wasting 7 levels with no benefits to show for it is definitive proof. Any other attribute will give you it's full benefit regardless of when you increase it. +CON increases your health retroactively, +WIS increases your FP pool retroactively, etc. +INT only grants you extra skill points after you increase it by 2, so every 8 levels at best. Combine this with the way skills are calculated at creation, a high INT (say 14) at level 1 grants you 3 times as many starting skills (12) as you would have with an INT of 10 for a Guardian (4). It's obvious to anyone looking at this logically that INT benefits you most at creation and is a poor stat to invest your level up attributes in. That's not opinion, it's fact. Is that clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Honestly, this game has been out for what 4 years? I'd expect people to be more knowledgeable about it's mechanics by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 That would be like playing without ever changing saber styles from Form I... sure you can get by, but it's still a poor strategy, and it's pointless arguing otherwise. You forget the fact that some INT-checks use BASE INT. A base INT of 15... Also; I never EVER in any of my KOTOR2 playthoughs actually changed Saber Forms. No point; not worth the hassle... ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionavar Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Reminder: Opinions are that - perceptions based on subjective criteria. Do indeed feel free to share them and try to explain ... also please avoid the temptation to migrate opinions to fact ... it invites the SIN of trolling ... /reminder The universe is change; your life is what our thoughts make it - Marcus Aurelius (161) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) You forget the fact that some INT-checks use BASE INT. A base INT of 15...Also; I never EVER in any of my KOTOR2 playthoughs actually changed Saber Forms. No point; not worth the hassle... Are you serious?... Haha wow. No offense but you have literally no idea what you're talking about. http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotorii/forcepowers.php Check out the saber form descriptions in the upper right hand side and get back to me about them having no point. Juyo and Shien are amazing for melee characters. Shien is pretty much the best form a Critical Strike user can get, and Juyo is fantastic with Power Attack. Am I the only one that does a little investigating into game mechanics to figure out how to build a solid character? Edited July 25, 2008 by Chancellor PalpaTANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Reminder: Opinions are that - perceptions based on subjective criteria. I think we all agree on that. However I am objectively explaining basic game mechanics here. The fact that INT provides most of its benefit early on is pretty clear. Mathematically speaking, if you really want to get the most out of your skills, it's best to give a high INT at creation rather than leveling it up as you go along. No need to shoot the messenger, I didn't code the system. Considering you're a dev though I'm sure that's nothing new to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Am I the only one that does a little investigating into game mechanics to figure out how to build a solid character? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact remains that you are talking about what you believe a "solid character" to be - and thus you cannot expect everyone to agree with you. "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 you're a dev though I'm sure that's nothing new to you. The Green Dragon is not a Developer, nor does he work for Obsidian (unless that has not changed without his telling us) - he is simply the lead moderator. "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) Maybe, maybe not. But the fact remains that you are talking about what you believe a "solid character" to be - and thus you cannot expect everyone to agree with you. My definition of a solid character is one that is optimized for its function. I can tell most people on this board are unfamiliar with the mindset you get from competitive gaming, but I personally enjoy finding new ways to maximize my character's effectiveness as much as I do watching the story unfold. If you don't, that's fine, you can enjoy the game however you want. But don't claim that some clearly inferior build strategy (ie, leveling up INT) is somehow the best route when it's obviously not. This thread was started by someone asking for help building a Guar/Mara, but there was so much misinformation going around I had to speak up. Edited July 25, 2008 by Chancellor PalpaTANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tylaw9460 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) I Edited July 25, 2008 by Tylaw9460 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 But don't claim that some clearly inferior build strategy (ie, leveling up INT) is somehow the best route when it's obviously not. The problem is that you are the one deciding what is "inferior" and what is "superior," and thus we again find ourselves talking about personal belief and not fact. "There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths." ~Friedrich Nietzsche "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 But don't claim that some clearly inferior build strategy (ie, leveling up INT) is somehow the best route when it's obviously not. The problem is that you are the one deciding what is "inferior" and what is "superior," and thus we again find ourselves talking about personal belief and not fact. "There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths." ~Friedrich Nietzsche Actually I'm not deciding anything, it is by its own virtue, inferior. You're spending 8 levels worth of attribute points and only getting 1 level's benefit, as opposed to simply starting with a higher INT at creation which not only gives you the full benefits to your skill totals for all your levels, but also multiplies your starting skill total (the biggest bunch of skills you ever get in game). Again, I didn't code the game, that's just how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 You have a right to your opinion, but that is what it is. Repeating it does not make it fact, and neither I nor anyone else must agree with it. "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Reminder: Opinions are that - perceptions based on subjective criteria. Do indeed feel free to share them and try to explain ... also please avoid the temptation to migrate opinions to fact ... it invites the SIN of trolling ... /reminder "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor PalpaTANG Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) What? That makes no sense... that's like saying the statement, "9 is a bigger number than 5" is somehow a subjective opinion. Like I said he can play any way he wants, but his stance was that his way was the best choice, I've shown otherwise and have the game mechanics, simple math, and logic behind me. He has...? Are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing? Edited July 25, 2008 by Chancellor PalpaTANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionavar Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I have decided to disagree for the sake of disagreeing ... I have no idea what 'truth' is in here - heck alone out here in R/L - but I do KNOW when there is mutual baiting ... bisurge asked a reasonable question and hopefully the interpretations and opinions herein will be of assistance. As such, rather then set myself up for having to do actual moderating work, I'll be lazy and shut this one down ... thanks for your passion and investment in the topic! Respectfully, Fionavar The universe is change; your life is what our thoughts make it - Marcus Aurelius (161) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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