The Mass Effect comparisons must get annoying

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, ME definetly is RPG. Not paragon of RPG playing but it features nice amount of C&C and even major ones. Plus it has character building and all the RPG trademarks

 

Ergo it is RPG, like it or not

Nice amounts of C&C? Did you play a special C&C edition? And I didn't say it wasn't an RPG, because technically it is, I said it completely fails as an RPG, though it does make an average cinematic shooter.

[GhostofAnakin]

Nice amounts of C&C? Did you play a special C&C edition? And I didn't say it wasn't an RPG, because technically it is, I said it completely fails as an RPG, though it does make an average cinematic shooter.

 

We get it, you hated Mass Effect. Yet, you never really say what it was you hated. You got on the Obsidian developer for not expanding on his reasoning, yet your response is "completely fails as an RPG".

 

Okay, how does it fail?

 

As not to sidetrack this thread any more, if you do have a response to that, maybe post it in one of the many ME threads in the Computer and Console forum.

[Redfield]

I think AP being compared to ME could be both a good thing and a bad thing.

 

It could be a good thing because Mass Effect was a good game, a huuuge number of people have played it, and it's no small bet that quite a few of those ME fans wouldn't hesitate to play another RPG that appeared similar gameplay-wise.

 

It could be a bad thing, however, because being compared to Mass Effect also doesn't help Obsidian in distancing themselves from BioWare.

 

Also, Dagon: Quit being so butthurt over Mass Effect.

[Wrath of Dagon]

We get it, you hated Mass Effect. Yet, you never really say what it was you hated. You got on the Obsidian developer for not expanding on his reasoning, yet your response is "completely fails as an RPG".

 

Okay, how does it fail?

I did say what I hated, in the same post I said it completely fails as an RPG, you need to read more carefully.

As not to sidetrack this thread any more, if you do have a response to that, maybe post it in one of the many ME threads in the Computer and Console forum.

I already explained it in that thread, again you're not paying attention.

 

And Redfield, I don't need anyone to tell me what to do. Having an AP developer say ME is good concerns me, since it could mean we'll see the same kind of thing in AP.

[Patrick K Mills]

Anyone who can define "RPG" in a way that encompasses the following titles, and excludes others, to my satisfaction will earn, from me, 3 months of time in any MMO they want OR any single game title currently on the market ($60USD max on either).

 

The titles that must be included are:

 

Final Fantasy 7

Diablo II

WoW

Fallout

Planescape: Torment

Baldur's Gate 2

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance

EVE Online

Oblivion

System Shock 2

Deus Ex

Mass Effect

 

The titles that must be excluded:

DooM

Quake 2

Battlefield 2

Warcraft 3

Call of Duty 4

Assassin's Creed

Soul Caliber

Gran Turismo

Magic: The Gathering Online

 

I know that this isn't fair since I'm the judge and the one giving the award, but seriously, if you impress me you've got it. If you can't, step off because you don't have any more of a clue than anyone else.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, several games in your first list aren't RPG's, so it makes it kind of tough. To be meaningfully an RPG, the game has to be about player choice, I'll return with a more formal definition in a little bit.

 

Edit: Found it:

A CRPG is a game where the primary input is a player focus on developing and defining a character both functionally and in narrative context, while the primary output is a gameworld response and challenge to the player character's choices and actions.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=338.0 Edited July 21, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Nathaniel Chapman]

To be meaningfully an RPG, the game has to be about player choice

 

Does that exclusively encompass plot-related choice? What about gameplay choices? If the answer is yes to the first, that excludes a lot of games that many (most?) would consider RPGs, including Darklands and many of the old Gold Box games. Additionally few RPGs provide "real" choice - most simply provide the illusion of choice but still take you through the same essential story regardless of your choices. Not to knock them - I love RPGs (duh) but I think you may be misrepresenting the difference between, say, the level of choice in Mass Effect and the level of choice in other games.

[Patrick K Mills]

Well, several games in your first list aren't RPG's, so it makes it kind of tough. To be meaningfully an RPG, the game has to be about player choice, I'll return with a more formal definition in a little bit.

 

No, that's not how it works. I put up a list of games in the first category that a not-insignificant number of players would argue are RPGs, they might not all agree on everything on the list, but there isn't a game in that first category that isn't classified as an RPG by the press, the retailer, or by the fans.

 

On the other hand, the second list contains no games that are classified as RPG by any of the above groups, or at least not a significant proportion of them.

 

So your formal definition must contain all of the former and none of the later. That's the rule.

[Redfield]

And Redfield, I don't need anyone to tell me what to do. Having an AP developer say ME is good concerns me, since it could mean we'll see the same kind of thing in AP.

 

Well, I came off a bit snotty in my one-sentence reply to you. I apologize for that--but still....

 

Similar to Mass Effect or not--Alpha Protocol is going to be what it's going to be. No sense getting worked up about it. Your opinion that Mass Effect "completely fails as an RPG" is fine and all, but it has absolutely no bearing Alpha Protocol. Just because you've taken the opinion of a few journalists that "AP looks similar to ME" to mean that both games must share all of the boons/flaws of the other, doesn't mean that it's true.

 

Honestly, from your posting here and on the BioWare forums, you seem to be the type that is quick to nod in agreement with a developer if it's an idea that you approve of, but when something you don't like rears its ugly head, you jump in with both feet, whining with the rest, mistakenly believing that it will do any good at all.

[Patrick K Mills]

Just because you've taken the opinion of a few journalists that "AP looks similar to ME" to mean that both games must share all of the boons/flaws of the other, doesn't mean that it's true.

 

There is no MAKO in AP, if that makes anyone feel better.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Well, several games in your first list aren't RPG's, so it makes it kind of tough. To be meaningfully an RPG, the game has to be about player choice, I'll return with a more formal definition in a little bit.

 

Edit: Found it:

A CRPG is a game where the primary input is a player focus on developing and defining a character both functionally and in narrative context, while the primary output is a gameworld response and challenge to the player character's choices and actions.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=338.0

 

By this definition, I could argue that The Sims is a CRPG - though I guess it depends on how broad a definition of narrative you're going with. Emergent narrative is, of course, a relatively out-there field but I think it's reasonable enough to argue that it counts.

 

However, I think that Mass Effect certainly fits the definition you provided. I also think that your definition is far too narrow to reasonably encompass the RPG genre as a whole - though it's a pretty good definition of CRPGs.

[Wrath of Dagon]

To be meaningfully an RPG, the game has to be about player choice

 

Does that exclusively encompass plot-related choice? What about gameplay choices? If the answer is yes to the first, that excludes a lot of games that many (most?) would consider RPGs, including Darklands and many of the old Gold Box games. Additionally few RPGs provide "real" choice - most simply provide the illusion of choice but still take you through the same essential story regardless of your choices. Not to knock them - I love RPGs (duh) but I think you may be misrepresenting the difference between, say, the level of choice in Mass Effect and the level of choice in other games.

Well, they always provide some real choice, you may not have much choice in the overall story arc but at least you should have choice in doing individual quests. Plus a well executed illusion of choice still qualifies as choice so far as I'm concerned. One of the big problems with ME was that it failed to provide meaningful choices to the player because of the on-rails structure of the game.

[Patrick K Mills]

Edit: Found it:

A CRPG is a game where the primary input is a player focus on developing and defining a character both functionally and in narrative context, while the primary output is a gameworld response and challenge to the player character's choices and actions.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=338.0

 

How does this address FF7, Diablo 2, or System Shock 2? Among others on the list.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Similar to Mass Effect or not--Alpha Protocol is going to be what it's going to be. No sense getting worked up about it. Your opinion that Mass Effect "completely fails as an RPG" is fine and all, but it has absolutely no bearing Alpha Protocol. Just because you've taken the opinion of a few journalists that "AP looks similar to ME" to mean that both games must share all of the boons/flaws of the other, doesn't mean that it's true.

I didn't say anything of the sort, and AP looking similar and having a similar concept to ME is my own opinion, not one I borrowed from journalists.

 

Honestly, from your posting here and on the BioWare forums, you seem to be the type that is quick to nod in agreement with a developer if it's an idea that you approve of, but when something you don't like rears its ugly head, you jump in with both feet, whining with the rest, mistakenly believing that it will do any good at all.

Why is stating my honest opinion whining? Anyway, I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Edit: Found it:

A CRPG is a game where the primary input is a player focus on developing and defining a character both functionally and in narrative context, while the primary output is a gameworld response and challenge to the player character's choices and actions.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=338.0

 

How does this address FF7, Diablo 2, or System Shock 2? Among others on the list.

I don't believe that they are, although I have to admit I'm judging them without having played them. Just because someone says a game is an RPG, doesn't mean that it is.

[Pidesco]

Anyone who can define "RPG" in a way that encompasses the following titles, and excludes others, to my satisfaction will earn, from me, 3 months of time in any MMO they want OR any single game title currently on the market ($60USD max on either).

 

The titles that must be included are:

 

Final Fantasy 7

Diablo II

WoW

Fallout

Planescape: Torment

Baldur's Gate 2

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance

EVE Online

Oblivion

System Shock 2

Deus Ex

Mass Effect

 

 

All those games include visible stat growth, I think. So there's your definition. I'm guessing EVE Online's stats are tied to your ship, though.

 

What do I win?

[Redfield]

Anyway, I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes.

 

Can you honestly not see that this is your opinion? There's a massive number of people who would beg to differ that Mass Effect is a "badly designed RPG". Most importantly, if Obsidian doens't share your opinion of Mass Effect, you're just pissing into the wind anyhow.

[Redfield]

Just because someone says a game is an RPG, doesn't mean that it is.

 

And by that same token, just because someone says a game is not an RPG, doesn't mean it isn't.

[Patrick K Mills]

I don't believe that they are, although I have to admit I'm judging them without having played them. Just because someone says a game is an RPG, doesn't mean that it is.

 

Just because you say something "fails as an RPG on every level" doesn't mean that it does. I set the pieces, named the prize and wrote the rules. You are doing the same thing.

 

My point, of course, is that there is no objective definition of what makes a game an RPG that satisfies all people who claim to like RPGs.

 

PS. Seriously, you've never played Diablo II or System Shock 2?

[Patrick K Mills]

All those games include visible stat growth, I think. So there's your definition. I'm guessing EVE Online's stats are tied to your ship, though.

 

What do I win?

 

So does Warcraft 3 and Gran Truismo. Arguably most of the other games on the list do as well, if you include weapon stats.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Besides, there is no jumping in ME. Bioware has a Z Axis phobia.

No. Bioware has a focus on party RPGs.

 

No, it has a serious z-axis phobia. Like they didn't want to implement decent vertical physics and controls.

 

It's all the extra math it's too much for the bioweenies.

[Starwars]

I'd say it's pretty hard to define just what a RPG is. There are certainly traits which can be recognized, but many of these can also carry over into games that I don't feel are RPGs.

I definetely feel Mass Effect is a RPG. But I also feel it's, well... I guess a bit shallow when it comes to the RPG elements? How you evolve your character (class-wise) doesn't make much that much difference I thought, it's still fight fight fight. There are definetely choices in dialogues, but again, they are not particularly amazing I think.

 

I think the biggest thing that I consider a flaw in Mass Effect is also how I consider many other recent RPGs. The player is simply held back to much. It never feels like I'm driving the game along, instead it feels like I'm sort of shovelled between cutscenes and story exposition. A part of that is the heavy cinematics, which look nice, but it also tends to emphazise the point that I'm watching a movie even though I can participate as well.

Bioware has always been about storytelling, but I must admit I it's become way to much. To much of the story and narrative "choking" the player. I miss games like Arcanum or Fallout where it really felt like the player mattered.

 

There are happy compromises though. Mask of the Betrayer I thought was good in providing a good and fairly heavy story, but it still felt like it was playerdriven you know? Same for PS:T, even with its massive story.

This is a bit of siderant though.

 

Something I do hope AP can get compared with is the face animations in Vampire: Bloodlines. I started a replay of that today, and man, the characters there really feel personal. The face animations are superb and really full of personality. Best I've seen so far in a RPG. I actually thought of Vampire when I saw those recent screenshots of characters in AP. Hopefully they'll be really well animated.

[Sand]

It's all the extra math it's too much for the bioweenies.

 

We can't blame them too much. They're Kanadian after all.

[Xard]

Well, ME definetly is RPG. Not paragon of RPG playing but it features nice amount of C&C and even major ones. Plus it has character building and all the RPG trademarks

 

Ergo it is RPG, like it or not

Nice amounts of C&C? Did you play a special C&C edition? And I didn't say it wasn't an RPG, because technically it is, I said it completely fails as an RPG, though it does make an average cinematic shooter.

 

Please, ME should be roleplayingwise Bio's best.

 

Your point is moot untill you prove there isn't roleplaying in ME (rather than I or someone else must do the opposite)

A CRPG is a game where the primary input is a player focus on developing and defining a character both functionally and in narrative context, while the primary output is a gameworld response and challenge to the player character's choices and actions.

 

Funny, ME has both

 

(and how the heck did I end up defending ME anyway?)

Edited July 21, 2008 by Xard

[Cycloneman]

All those games include visible stat growth, I think.

So do WC3, and Assassin's Creed. And Gran Turismo if you use the same wide methodology as you're using to include Eve Online.

 

EDIT: Goddamn... super-ninja'd. Should've previewed instead of sitting on a webpage for an hour... durr.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Cycloneman