Pathfinder RPG

[ramza]

1) I agree that rules are more important than art. I was just stating that I liked but since it wasn't relevant to the discussion, I put it in parenthesis.

 

2) They are overpowered compared to the core classes of the Phb. Sure, the latter lack flavor and there are ways to give them new abilities without making them overpowered. As I have already said, I am using the concept of kits in order to replace some core class abilities by prestige class abilities (ie: an assassin loses trap sense but gets poison resistance instead). I believe that I achieve some level of flexibility by doing this (but that's just me). Btw, I never make use of the newest core classes like the ones you mentioned. Even if I allow my players to play a scout or a samurai, they use my homebrew equivalents which are less munchkin than the ones released by WotC lately.

[Magister Lajciak]

1) I agree that rules are more important than art. I was just stating that I liked but since it wasn't relevant to the discussion, I put it in parenthesis.

 

I wasn't implying that you think art is more important than the rules - sorry if it came across that way.

 

2) They are overpowered compared to the core classes of the Phb.

 

Ok, yes, of course they are. Among the goals stated for the race and class redesigns by the Paizo designers are the following that are relevant:

 

1) Bring the core races classes to par with the newer classes (such as the ones I mentioned in my examples) so that they are no longer sub-optimal choices mechanically and so that they can play in the same group on an equal footing

2) Ensure that core classes are worth taking for full 20 levels - as it stands the original core classes are not worth taking for full 20 levels due to prestige classes (e.g. many prestige classes grant full spellcasting progressions as well as extra abilities, which means no loss and all gain in taking them - the new core classes ensure that there is some loss for the gain)

 

Btw, I never make use of the newest core classes like the ones you mentioned. Even if I allow my players to play a scout or a samurai, they use my homebrew equivalents which are less munchkin than the ones released by WotC lately.

 

Fair enough. I do use the newer core classes though not all that frequently.

[Jorian Drake]

prestige classes are a new level of understanding in a profession usually, i don't think they need to be less effective than base classes, the difference between base classes and prestige classes are like between a taxi driver and a Forma 1 driver, and that is good so

[Magister Lajciak]

prestige classes are a new level of understanding in a profession usually, i don't think they need to be less effective than base classes,

 

Prestige classes indeed do not need to be less effective than base classes, but rather should overall be equally effective as base classes, but in a different way (e.g. through specialization, or through combination of features of other classes, or...). At the moment (in unmodified 3.5E), that is not the case as many prestige classes are clearly superior to the base classes, which makes further advancement in the relevant base classes pointless after the criteria of the prestige class are met.

[Jorian Drake]

prestige classes are a new level of understanding in a profession usually, i don't think they need to be less effective than base classes,

 

Prestige classes indeed do not need to be less effective than base classes, but rather should overall be equally effective as base classes, but in a different way (e.g. through specialization, or through combination of features of other classes, or...). At the moment (in unmodified 3.5E), that is not the case as many prestige classes are clearly superior to the base classes, which makes further advancement in the relevant base classes pointless after the criteria of the prestige class are met.

okay...as example: please tell me why a prestige class called 'Archmage' should not be superior to the 'Wizard' ?

 

 

EDIT: the whole idea behind prestige classes is that you advance into something new, you are still what you archieved in your base class(es), but advancing further makes you only stronger than some base class anyway

 

Why would a simple soldier wish to become a commando if being soldier would be the same effective as being trained as a commando? It would make no sense

Edited June 3, 2008 by Jorian Drake

[J.E. Sawyer]

[quote name='H

[Jorian Drake]

[quote name='H

[ramza]

prestige classes are a new level of understanding in a profession usually, i don't think they need to be less effective than base classes,

 

Prestige classes indeed do not need to be less effective than base classes, but rather should overall be equally effective as base classes, but in a different way (e.g. through specialization, or through combination of features of other classes, or...). At the moment (in unmodified 3.5E), that is not the case as many prestige classes are clearly superior to the base classes, which makes further advancement in the relevant base classes pointless after the criteria of the prestige class are met.

okay...as example: please tell me why a prestige class called 'Archmage' should not be superior to the 'Wizard' ?

 

 

EDIT: the whole idea behind prestige classes is that you advance into something new, you are still what you archieved in your base class(es), but advancing further makes you only stronger than some base class anyway

 

Why would a simple soldier wish to become a commando if being soldier would be the same effective as being trained as a commando?e It would make no sense

 

It's true that prestige classes can be interpreted as some kind of further specialization to a given career.

 

However, I particularly don't like how prestige classes interrupt the natural progression of a given core class (spellcasting progression is slowed down, some important abilities are given up). I took a look at the SRD prestige classes and there are more or less pretty useless since their abilities are already available to some core classes. The arcane trickster's special abilities could become selectable feats for rogues (the ones that are available upn reaching lv 10) provided that the specific prerequisites are met. An assassin is like a rogue except for a few features (I have removed the assassin's spellcasting ability in my house rules btw). I admit that implementing the archmage prestige class is very tricky on the other hand (I may keep it as it is).

 

I would rather see prestige classes be implemented in a similar fashion to 4th edition paragons, or be implemented as kits that are chosen at lv1. That way, a wizard continues his spell progression up to the 9th spell level but gives up his bonus feats in order to gain something else instead. A fighter gives up his bonus feats but gains some special abilities instead. and so on...

[Jorian Drake]

"...are more or less pretty useless since their abilities are already available to some core classes. The arcane trickster's special abilities could become selectable feats for rogues..."

 

it is magic what the trickster does, that a simple rogue can't do, those skills thus can't be done by them, i can't imagine that anybody who isn't a spellcaster os psion could open locks or steal from meters away the victim

[ramza]

"...are more or less pretty useless since their abilities are already available to some core classes. The arcane trickster's special abilities could become selectable feats for rogues..."

 

it is magic what the trickster does, that a simple rogue can't do, those skills thus can't be done by them, i can't imagine that anybody who isn't a spellcaster os psion could open locks or steal from meters away the victim

 

 

Sorry, I tried to be as brief as possible but at the expense of the coherence of my thought...

 

What I tried to say, in the case of the Arcane Trickster, is that I would rather be able to pick any of his 2 main abilities (impromptu sneak attack and ranged legerdemain) as selectable feats for arcane spellcasters or as rogue special abilities. The arcane trickster prestige class is nothing really exceptional: it has sneak attack just like any rogue and has bonus spells just like any spellcasting class. What makes that PrC special are the 2 aforementioned abilities. Sure, to balance things, the prerequisites to these feats should at least require the character to be able to cast spells and have some thieving skills.

 

No matter what, I will never like the concept of prestige classes. There is absolutely no way for the player to get the arcane trickster's special abilities without disrupting the natural progression of his/her character as a rogue or as a wizard/sorcerer/bard. Why would I want to progress as an arcane trickster beyond lv 3 of that Prc if I am only interested in getting a "sample" of his unique abilities? I don't want to force my players into sacrificing so many feats and skill points just to get these 2 abilities.

Edited June 4, 2008 by ramza

[Jorian Drake]

"...are more or less pretty useless since their abilities are already available to some core classes. The arcane trickster's special abilities could become selectable feats for rogues..."

 

it is magic what the trickster does, that a simple rogue can't do, those skills thus can't be done by them, i can't imagine that anybody who isn't a spellcaster os psion could open locks or steal from meters away the victim

 

 

Sorry, I tried to be as brief as possible but at the expense of the coherence of my thought...

 

What I tried to say, in the case of the Arcane Trickster, is that I would rather be able to pick any of his 2 main abilities (impromptu sneak attack and ranged legerdemain) as selectable feats for arcane spellcasters or as rogue special abilities. The arcane trickster prestige class is nothing really exceptional: it has sneak attack just like any rogue and has bonus spells just like any spellcasting class. What makes that PrC special are the 2 aforementioned abilities. Sure, to balance things, the prerequisites to these feats should at least require the character to be able to cast spells and have some thieving skills.

 

No matter what, I will never like the concept of prestige classes. There is absolutely no way for the player to get the arcane trickster's special abilities without disrupting the natural progression of his/her character as a rogue or as a wizard/sorcerer/bard. Why would I want to progress as an arcane trickster beyond lv 3 of that Prc if I am only interested in getting a "sample" of his unique abilities? I don't want to force my players into sacrificing so many feats and skill points just to get these 2 abilities.

 

there is a book called arcanra or arcane sumtin that talks about gestalts, we have 1-2 campaigns going on with that concept and it is entertaining

 

i think you search for something like that

[ramza]

Do you mean arcana evolved or arcana unearthed?

 

Btw, I wanted to add that in order to become an arcane trickster, you need to have both rogue levels and levels in some kind of arcane spellcasting class (Bard, Wizard or Sorcerer). The difference in my house rules is that I allow my players to gain some of the trickster's unique abilities while allowing them to keep their focus on only 2 classes instead of 3. Going beyond 3 levels of the arcane trickster prestige class is useless because all his abilities are kinda repetitive. The other levels don't bring anything new. Why would a player jeopardize his career as either a rogue or as a spellcaster just to get the same abilities over and over? Spellcasters gain some neat spells as they grow in power and rogues have access to some cool special abilities beyond level 10...

[Jorian Drake]

Do you mean arcana evolved or arcana unearthed?

 

Btw, I wanted to add that in order to become an arcane trickster, you need to have both rogue levels and levels in some kind of arcane spellcasting class (Bard, Wizard or Sorcerer). The difference in my house rules is that I allow my players to gain some of the trickster's unique abilities while allowing them to keep their focus on only 2 classes instead of 3. Going beyond 3 levels of the arcane trickster prestige class is useless because all his abilities are kinda repetitive. The other levels don't bring anything new. Why would a player jeopardize his career as either a rogue or as a spellcaster just to get the same abilities over and over? Spellcasters gain some neat spells as they grow in power and rogues have access to some cool special abilities beyond level 10...

arcana unearthed i think

 

 

 

 

 

 

normally, one should take trickster classes to have in one go spellcasting with magic type thieving skills and some rogue abilities, but i agree that it would be only worth if the trickster would get on every level spellcasting levels (forgot if it is the case or not), and as far i know higher levels mean you can use the special abilities more than once

[ramza]

normally, one should take trickster classes to have in one go spellcasting with magic type thieving skills and some rogue abilities, but i agree that it would be only worth if the trickster would get on every level spellcasting levels (forgot if it is the case or not), and as far i know higher levels mean you can use the special abilities more than once

 

True. However, for me, the Arcane Trickster PrC is not good enough. I find it more interesting for the players to keep progressing as a rogue, a wizard or a rogue/wizard. Personally, I think that the concept of PrCs is seriously lacking. The only thing that makes them interesting is their unique abilities.

 

I like very much what BIS did with IWD2. They implemented some of the unique abilities of prestige classes as selectable feats (envenom weapon, maximized attacks, etc).

[Stephen Amber]

I like very much what BIS did with IWD2. They implemented some of the unique abilities of prestige classes as selectable feats (envenom weapon, maximized attacks, etc).

 

You can also take it too far. To the point that you might question what the point of having classes at all is. IWD2 took it waaayyy too far in a couple instances.

[ramza]

The secret recipe is to make those special feats available to only a few classes and not all of them, just as there are class-exclusive skills.

[Magister Lajciak]

Do you mean arcana evolved or arcana unearthed?

 

Btw, I wanted to add that in order to become an arcane trickster, you need to have both rogue levels and levels in some kind of arcane spellcasting class (Bard, Wizard or Sorcerer). The difference in my house rules is that I allow my players to gain some of the trickster's unique abilities while allowing them to keep their focus on only 2 classes instead of 3. Going beyond 3 levels of the arcane trickster prestige class is useless because all his abilities are kinda repetitive. The other levels don't bring anything new. Why would a player jeopardize his career as either a rogue or as a spellcaster just to get the same abilities over and over? Spellcasters gain some neat spells as they grow in power and rogues have access to some cool special abilities beyond level 10...

 

arcana unearthed i think

 

 

No, no... Arcana Unearthed and Unearthed Arcana are actually completely different books that are not related in any way. Arcana Unearthed is created by Monte Cook (who is also now a consultant for the Pathfinder RPG) and is a completely new game based on D&D, but different. Unearthed Arcana, by contrast, is published by WotC and is a book of options and house rules for 3.5E. Both of the books are very good, though, I must say.

[Walsingham]

That artwork totally put me off. Two dimensional characters ahoy!

[Jorian Drake]

That artwork totally put me off. Two dimensional characters ahoy!

 

 

I didn't know RPG books were ever holographic...

[Walsingham]

That artwork totally put me off. Two dimensional characters ahoy!

 

 

I didn't know RPG books were ever holographic...

 

I'm talking about the way it seems like the players should produce cookie cutter gruff dwarves etc. I mean look at the halfling! He's like a tiny gymnast! The Half elf is teh only slightl intriguing one, as she looks like she wandered out the wrong fire door from an NYC fashion shoot.

 

Where are the quirks? Where the pathos!?

 

*Walsingham begins fuming and throwing papers around in Gallic fashion*

[Magister Lajciak]

Sean Reynolds, the D&D/Forgotten Realms designer, has just been hired by Paizo to work on Pathfinder.

[Magister Lajciak]

Here is the link to the news: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizo...lcomeAboardSean

[J.E. Sawyer]

Sean owns.

[Magister Lajciak]

Sean owns.

 

That is correct, sir.

[steelfiredragon]

Sean owns.

If its worth saying once and quoted once, its worth quoting twice.

 

they got him, they got me as a customer.

 

 

 

where do we go to petition a pathfinder pc game???