Which feature is most important in AP?

[bronzepoem]

1. Elder scroll and Fallout have this feature. Also Baldur gate 1 have a amazing world.

2. Fallout is the peak of this.

3."What can change the nature of man?"

4.Arcanum have been destroyed by it...

 

 

I vote 1, because AP doesn't have a fantasy background. If there won't be a good global travelling feeling in AP, the game world won't have enough attraction to many players.

What's your opinions~

Edited April 8, 2008 by bronzepoem

[Humodour]

I don't think any one of those defines all good RPGs, but pretty much every good RPG is defined by at least one of those.

 

I voted for complex dialogue and plot, though.

 

Edit: No I didn't, I voted for all 3.

 

Fallout (awesome RPG all round):

- big world, non-linear exploration

- lots of quests, only really 2 options per quest on average, but still more than pretty much every other RPG, so...

- complex dialogue, multiple meaningful choices in dialogue

- pretty simple (but non-linear) main plot, but complex back-story and complex atmosphere

- interesting/quirky but superficial joinable NPCs

 

Icewind Dale (awesome RPG for tactical combat):

- big world to explore, but linear progression

- not many quests, typically only 1 option per quest

- fairly complex dialogue when it actually popped up, often multiple, but redundant choices

- pretty complex (but linear) main plot, average back-story, good atmosphere

- no joinable NPCs

 

Planescape: Torment (awesome RPG for story and exploration):

- big world to explore, a good mix of non-linear and directed exploration

- lots of quests, 2 or more options per quest

- complex dialogue, multiple meaningful choices in dialogue

- very complex, linear main plot, complex back-story and complex atmosphere

- deep, interesting, useful NPCs

 

Baldur's Gate 1 (awesome RPG, jack of all trades and master of none):

- big world to explore, non-linear exploration

- a fair amount of fun quests, usually with only one solution

- fairly simple (but fun) dialogue, few dialogue choices

- involving, linear main plot, average back-story and atmosphere

- superficial, funny, useful NPCs

 

Baldur's Gate 2 (ok RPG, doesn't live up to its predecessor):

- a smaller world to explore, more linear exploration, but arguably more quests and such packed into each area

- many quests, often boring and tedious, typically only one solution

- fairly simple, semi-interesting dialogue, often redundant dialogue choices

- excessively 'personal' and pushy main plot, good back-story, poor atmosphere

- superficial, often boring, useful NPCs

 

KOTOR (awesome RPG - another all-rounder):

- a pretty large world to explore, partially non-linear exploration

- average number of quests, many boring, many interesting, typically 2 solutions, but the difference trivial

- fairly interesting dialogue, dialogue choices often meaningful

- fun, interesting plot, good backstory, good atmosphere

- semi-superficial, fun, useful NPCs

 

Bloodlines (awesome RPG for empowering the player):

- a small world to explore, but very high density of quests and detail, non-linear exploration

- large number of interesting and novel quests, multiple solutions

- interesting dialogue, dialogue choices semi-meaningful

- compelling plot, complex back-story, complex atmosphere

- no joinable NPCs

 

Deus Ex (awesome RPG for empowering the player, generally an awesome RPG all round):

- a big world to explore, fairly linear exploration progression

- a small number of interesting and novel quests, multiple solutions/approaches

- interesting, complex dialogue, meaningful choices

- very compelling plot, complex back-story, complex atmosphere

- no joinable NPCs

Edited April 8, 2008 by Krezack

[bronzepoem]

I don't think any one of those defines all good RPGs, but pretty much every good RPG is defined by at least one of those.

 

I voted for complex dialogue and plot, though.

 

Edit: No I didn't, I voted for all 3. :

God. it's really a awesome post. I learned many professional RPG words from you .Thanks.

 

But I think Baldur's gate 2 is an "awesome RPG for tactical combat" ~ There were many exciting battles such as red dargon, Shangalar team and the Demi-lich.

PST and Fallout have similar number optional solutions for quests. But PST's solutions are always by dialogue way. In Fallout we could solute a quest by dialogue depending on speech. Also we could solute them by gun, by bomb, by medicine, by steal,by repair,by some kind of trap. The kind of way is more complex than PST.

Bloodlines is an awesome game but bugs destroy it, too.

 

Now we can see what's a perfect RPG:

- big world to explore, non-linear exploration

- large number of interesting and novel quests, multiple solutions

- complex dialogue, multiple meaningful choices in dialogue

- very complex, non-linear main plot, complex back-story and complex atmosphere

- deep, interesting, useful NPCs

- little bugs

 

 

Come on, tell us all of these will be the features of AP. Are there some designers looking at this topic?

Edited April 8, 2008 by bronzepoem

[Humodour]

I basically agree. I think what you mention are good ideals for an RPG to aim for.

 

I think that at some point the designers need to say "we really want to emphasise THIS aspect" though, which may mean less focus on others aspects. Unfortunately, designers don't have infinite time and creativity on their hands.

 

And yeah, that's true - Fallout had multiple approaches to many quests. I guess that the developers should aim for both multiple ways to solve a quest, and multiple meaningful outcomes for a quest depending on choices made or approach taken.

 

Nice signature BTW. Good song.

 

BTW: did you patch Bloodlines? I used the latest official patch and it was relatively bug-free (less buggy than Fallout IMHO). There are also fan-made patches which fix even more bugs. But yeah, regardless of patches, bugs at initial release can ruin a game's sales - especially since critics often judge on unpatched versions.

[fastpunk]

It's definitely nr. 2 for me. It's a must for AP to give you many choices in how you complete quests: combat, stealth, dialog etc. This also implies that it needs good game mechanics for all of this to work so I hope Obsidian can do something nice with that. It's also important that AP is as bug free as possible, people tend to avoid games with big bugs and they spread the word fast... so yeah, for the sake of good financial results, AP better be polished. Good luck to the Obsidian team with this one! Looking forward to it.

[mkreku]

My first choice (not among the options in the poll) would be an honest game world. The rest kind of comes with that.

 

By honest game world I mean a world where there are as few imposed, immersion breaking limitations as possible. A game world where the built in laws of physics determine most of what's possible and what's not. Doors should be openable (unlocked/locked/shot through/driven through with a car/kicked in), the world shouldn't end with a three feet high unclimbable/jumpable fence (make an ocean or another natural barrier in that case), characters are killable, vehicles are driveable, random stuff is usable, etc. Then you build your quests according to your story from there. Be smart about it, use whatever's at hand in the well-designed world!

[Humodour]

I agree to a point, mkreku.

 

But one thing I got annoyed about in oblivion for example was that it become almost pointless to check crates and rooms. Just because you could usually didn't mean anything special would be gained.

 

NOLF1 solved this nicely by playing a "knock knock" sound when you tried to open a barred door. It made it just a bit more realistic than simply not having any option to open it at all.

[Lumenadducere]

I chose the last three. Dialog and plot are my chief concerns with RPGs, and if a game is bug-free then it ensures that it's a good and hassle-free experience. Complex quests and multiple ways to solve 'em are important, but they're not as important to me as the other two.

 

I don't care if a game has a big, open world to explore or not. Most of the dungeons in Oblivion wound up being the same thing over and over again, even if it was a nice gimmick at first. Exploration is nice, but if there's too much focus on it then it winds up taking away form the story and quests.

[Zoma]

I like to have complex and addictive combat if possible.

 

Something along the lines of Wizardry 8 in terms of 'addictive' which if AP can achieve, it will be awesome.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Zoma

[Master Assassin]

1. Elder scroll and Fallout have this feature. Also Baldur gate 1 have a amazing world.

2. Fallout is the peak of this.

3."What can change the nature of man?"

4.Arcanum have been destroyed by it...

 

 

I vote 1, because AP doesn't have a fantasy background. If there won't be a good global travelling feeling in AP, the game world won't have enough attraction to many players.

What's your opinions~

 

I'm in agreement here; I love the 'if you can see it, you can get to it' feature that has been shown in games such as Elder Scrolls and to a smaller extent, Assassins Creed.

 

I feel that complex quests and intriguing dialog should not be options but expectations to be realized; how big that world is, is sort of optional.

[bronzepoem]

BTW: did you patch Bloodlines? I used the latest official patch and it was relatively bug-free (less buggy than Fallout IMHO). There are also fan-made patches which fix even more bugs. But yeah, regardless of patches, bugs at initial release can ruin a game's sales - especially since critics often judge on unpatched versions.

Where can I download the fan-made patches? Which patch is best today for Bloodlines. I want to try the game althrough the language obstacle is terrible.

[bronzepoem]

My first choice (not among the options in the poll) would be an honest game world. The rest kind of comes with that.

 

By honest game world I mean a world where there are as few imposed, immersion breaking limitations as possible. A game world where the built in laws of physics determine most of what's possible and what's not. Doors should be openable (unlocked/locked/shot through/driven through with a car/kicked in), the world shouldn't end with a three feet high unclimbable/jumpable fence (make an ocean or another natural barrier in that case), characters are killable, vehicles are driveable, random stuff is usable, etc. Then you build your quests according to your story from there. Be smart about it, use whatever's at hand in the well-designed world!

Yes, in fact this is what I want to deliver in my first choice~

A free world means I can do waht we want to do. If you want open the door or drive that car, you can jst do it in the game.

Also 'if you can see it, you can get to it' is one aspect of this concept.

Maybe it's not the most important feature of a RPG. But it make the game world much more honest. I believe it will be a common feature in furture RPGs.

[Humodour]

BTW: did you patch Bloodlines? I used the latest official patch and it was relatively bug-free (less buggy than Fallout IMHO). There are also fan-made patches which fix even more bugs. But yeah, regardless of patches, bugs at initial release can ruin a game's sales - especially since critics often judge on unpatched versions.

Where can I download the fan-made patches? Which patch is best today for Bloodlines. I want to try the game althrough the language obstacle is terrible.

 

Language is a problem? Hmm, I can tell it's not your first language on here, but I think your posts make much more sense than the majority on here.

 

I'm guessing you've already tried the official patch? If not, this one is the latest: http://www.vampirebloodlines.com/patch/

 

Once you've actually played the game once that way, maybe try one of the unofficial patches. I strongly recommend trying it with the official 1.2 patch first, because I think the unofficial patch "fixes" a lot of things but also changes a lot of things (more like a mod) - it could introduce new bugs and it could unbalance the game. I have a feeling lots of the things fixed by the unofficial patches aren't really bugs - just things the patcher didn't like or thought would be cool.

 

The unofficial patch requires you to install the official patch first. The latest unofficial patch is here: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/vampire_bloodlines.php

Edited April 14, 2008 by Krezack

[Spider]

Iirc, there are two strains of fan patches. The on you mention that is a patch and a mod, and another one that strives to just do bug fixes. Don't have any handy links though, I'm afraid.

[Tale]

Only things I care about are fun gameplay and a good story. The rest is just flair. I don't particularly care for complex dialogue trees, either. I can't say I've seen any I would consider complex. Token differences for alignment purposes with generally only trivial immediate effects I'd be wary of considering complex. And I'd be afraid of overcomplexity from any that tried.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Tale

[bronzepoem]

Only things I care about are fun gameplay and a good story. The rest is just flair. I don't particularly care for complex dialogue trees, either. I can't say I've seen any I would consider complex. Token differences for alignment purposes with generally only trivial immediate effects I'd be wary of considering complex. And I'd be afraid of overcomplexity from any that tried.

If there are few dialogue, we won't have enough option to show our different personality. It's a part of gameplay I think.

Of course, if diferent dialogue lead to same result. The dialogue tree will be nonsense.

[bronzepoem]

Language is a problem? Hmm, I can tell it's not your first language on here, but I think your posts make much more sense than the majority on here.

 

I'm guessing you've already tried the official patch? If not, this one is the latest: http://www.vampirebloodlines.com/patch/

 

Once you've actually played the game once that way, maybe try one of the unofficial patches. I strongly recommend trying it with the official 1.2 patch first, because I think the unofficial patch "fixes" a lot of things but also changes a lot of things (more like a mod) - it could introduce new bugs and it could unbalance the game. I have a feeling lots of the things fixed by the unofficial patches aren't really bugs - just things the patcher didn't like or thought would be cool.

 

The unofficial patch requires you to install the official patch first. The latest unofficial patch is here: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/vampire_bloodlines.php

Thank you very much~

I haven't played Bloodlines so the offcial patch is enough for me. The bug is one reason I didn't play it. The language obstacle is biggest problem. Only those very famous games will be translate into Chinese. Unfortunately Bloodlines haven't.

In fact it's very hard for me to read you guys' thread A dictionary is beside me now. To completely understand your words will spend very long time. Such as the topic " First! Will there be crates? ", I totally can't understand what are you talking about~~To write the topic "Unarmed combat" spend me 1 hours.....

 

So I will start a English learning plan, Bloodlines will be first teaching material.

Edited April 14, 2008 by bronzepoem

[Tale]

If there are few dialogue, we won't have enough option to show our different personality. It's a part of gameplay I think.

Of course, if diferent dialogue lead to same result. The dialogue tree will be nonsense.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Diablo, Elder Scrolls, and Final Fantasy all get by without "option to show our different personality." Only game I can recall playing where that expression mattered where the Baldur's Gate titles. Act like an **** too much and there can be consequences from companions. I would nay anticipate such a thing occuring in another game. Planescape: Torment probably had it too, but I'm guessing.

[Xard]

I think he was referring to Choices and Concequences in general

[Tale]

I stand by what I said, well enough, whether it be "personality" or "consequences." Though, I should add that I now recall NWN2 tried implementing actual consequences to previous choices. Though they only really came through at the finding allies stage for the siege.

[Xard]

NWN2 is poor example of choices and consequences. Fallout is prime (and most used) example of C&C, from newer games MotB and The Witcher shine in this aspect too. BG1 usually get ripped apart by "harcore roleplayers" for its lack of roleplaying - namely C&C which is essential for roleplaying

 

JRPG's by rule lack this

Edited April 14, 2008 by Xard

[Tale]

I thought BG1 had incredible choice and consequences. Walk into a particular wrong house, you get attacked by the residents. It took me forever to figure out why all the guards hated me. I thought it was just because I had Viconia. But apparently it was because of casual home invasion and murder.

 

Then the whole Xzar-Jaheira event. Nothing says choice and consequence like choosing to have a party with people who can't stand each other and it erupting into violence.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Tale

[bronzepoem]

I think C&C just mean Command and Conquer before, funny

 

Different player personality>>>>choose different dialogue>>>>different concequences

Best example is PST and Witcher do a good job,too. I hear Bloodlines and Arcanum are good at this system but O haven't played them.

 

Fallout is a great game with C&C, but in Fallout we choose different quest solutions instead of dialogues. The concequences in Fallout is more abundant and compellent.

[Kelverin]

Then the whole Xzar-Jaheira event. Nothing says choice and consequence like choosing to have a party with people who can't stand each other and it erupting into violence.

One of my favorite event in any CRPG.

 

Anyway fun is that most important feature, which can be achieved if all the choices in the poll are implemented in the game, humor is always a plus as well.

[bronzepoem]

I thought BG1 had incredible choice and consequences. Walk into a particular wrong house, you get attacked by the residents. It took me forever to figure out why all the guards hated me. I thought it was just because I had Viconia. But apparently it was because of casual home invasion and murder.

 

Then the whole Xzar-Jaheira event. Nothing says choice and consequence like choosing to have a party with people who can't stand each other and it erupting into violence.

Yes, walk or not walk into a wrong house is a choice.

Such choices is basic. Of course home invasion will cause guards' attack. It's the same in fallout and PST.

In Fallout and PST there are more choices in depth which can influence NPCs' behavior and attitude, or influence the the story line, even will change a city's furture or the total result of the game. Your personality and behaviour patterns will change the game world and you may will answer for some of those changes.

 

Time for bed- -

Edited April 14, 2008 by bronzepoem