The rating?

[Humodour]

Do you honestly think they follow rules? Are you one of the people who think Guantanamo isn't a concentration camp?

 

Evidence seems to indicate their torture methods are less harsh than is presumed (and common in most countries), yes.

 

The CIA isn't a wildcard rogue organisation above the law.

[dan107]

Guantamo is a PoW camp, and one of the most humane PoW camps that ever existed. The foreign enemies of the United States that are held there are treated much more humanely by the CIA than a lot of countries treat their own citizens in their prisons.

 

Jesus ****ing christ...

 

Get real

 

What a brilliant and factually substantiated arguement. How can I contend with that?

[SteveThaiBinh]

I think a discussion of the appropriacy of torture and other 'mature' content in Alpha Protocol is fine here. If we're heading off into a wider discussion on the nature and actions of the CIA, could you guys please start a thread on that over in the Way-Off Topic forum?

[walkerguy]

Read up on your history my friend. Comparing the CIA to the SS or the Gestapo is utterly absurd. Guantamo is a PoW camp, and one of the most humane PoW camps that ever existed. The foreign enemies of the United States that are held there are treated much more humanely by the CIA than a lot of countries treat their own citizens in their prisons.

 

And don't forget why they're doing this in the first place. Let's say you're an intelligence officer tasked with defending the national interests of your country. You're interrogating a guy that was caught somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan. While his guilt has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, odds are overwhelming that he is one of the people that openely hates your country and has vowed to cause you as much death and destruction as possible. You also have reason to believe that he is in possession of information that will help you track down declared enemies of your country, and save your compatriots' lives. Are you really going to claim that turning him upside down and splashing a little water in his face to extract that information is not a reasonable course of action? Especially knowing that were the shoe on the other foot, people like him would have no hesitation about cutting your head off, and video taping it for the world to see?

 

I agree.

 

Do you honestly think they follow rules? Are you one of the people who think Guantanamo isn't a concentration camp?

 

It isn't. The prisoners of Guantonomo get better healthcare than many of our citizens.

 

Moore took ailing Sept. 11 rescue workers to Cuba to dramatize the notion that Cubans and even U.S. prisoners at Guantanamo get better health care than these Americans.

 

More...

Just a movie altering politics?

[tripleRRR]

I think actual torture, anything beyond grabbing some guy and shaking him hard. Would push the rating past M. So I hope not.

 

The rest of this thread belongs in way off topic IMO.

[Sand]

Dan, it sounds to me that you buy into the whole American Apple Pie propaganda. Good for you. Now, for us who live in the real world I say torture definitely needs to be in the game. Let the game have an AO rating! I'll still buy it.

[walkerguy]

The rest of this thread belongs in way off topic IMO.

 

Yes.

[dan107]

Dan, it sounds to me that you buy into the whole American Apple Pie propaganda. Good for you. Now, for us who live in the real world I say torture definitely needs to be in the game. Let the game have an AO rating! I'll still buy it.

 

Would you care to come up with any facts, or at least a coherent arguement to substantiate your claims, or to dispute any point that I made? Putting on superior airs and insulting my intelligence does nothing to bolster your position, nor does it weaken mine.

 

Getting back to the game, it's difficult for me to imagine how you can make a game with an intelligence agent as a protagonist, and claim to offer a wide latitude of moral choices without including the option for some brutal torture (real torture, not CIA kiddie torture) to get the job done. It doesn't have to be shown really explicitly, but it's certainly not something that should be glossed over or sugarcoated. I think that something similar to the ME approach (where whenever you executed someone, you would hold a gun to their head, and then the camera would pan to show your character pulling the trigger, without explicitly showing the victim's head getting blown off) is a pretty good balance.

Edited April 2, 2008 by dan107

[Sand]

Dan, it sounds to me that you buy into the whole American Apple Pie propaganda. Good for you. Now, for us who live in the real world I say torture definitely needs to be in the game. Let the game have an AO rating! I'll still buy it.

 

Would you care to come up with any facts, or at least a coherent arguement to substantiate your claims, or to dispute any point that I made? Putting on superior airs and insulting my intelligence does nothing to bolster your position, nor does it weaken mine.

 

And your point? We are discussing opinions here, not facts. Please, keep up.

[dan107]

Dan, it sounds to me that you buy into the whole American Apple Pie propaganda. Good for you. Now, for us who live in the real world I say torture definitely needs to be in the game. Let the game have an AO rating! I'll still buy it.

 

Would you care to come up with any facts, or at least a coherent arguement to substantiate your claims, or to dispute any point that I made? Putting on superior airs and insulting my intelligence does nothing to bolster your position, nor does it weaken mine.

 

And your point? We are discussing opinions here, not facts. Please, keep up.

 

Generally when one provides an opinion in a debate, it is reasonable to expect that opinion to be backed up by facts, or at least to form a coherent arguement, no?

 

And why do you insist on inserting snide remarks implying that I'm dumber than you? I'm glad if that gives you some measure of satisfaction, but saying so doesn't make it so.

Edited April 2, 2008 by dan107

[Sand]

If it doesn't make it so then why are you being so defensive?

[Gfted1]

Oy! Sand lecturing someone on the "real world". Has the Earth slipped off its axis?

[walkerguy]

Oh no! Catfight!

 

Dan vs Sand

Edited April 2, 2008 by walkerguy

[Humodour]

If it doesn't make it so then why are you being so defensive?

 

Now now, Visceris. You're hardly one to talk.

[Sand]

If it doesn't make it so then why are you being so defensive?

 

Now now, Visceris. You're hardly one to talk.

 

Of course. That's why it is fun.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Getting back to the game, it's difficult for me to imagine how you can make a game with an intelligence agent as a protagonist, and claim to offer a wide latitude of moral choices without including the option for some brutal torture (real torture, not CIA kiddie torture) to get the job done. It doesn't have to be shown really explicitly, but it's certainly not something that should be glossed over or sugarcoated. I think that something similar to the ME approach (where whenever you executed someone, you would hold a gun to their head, and then the camera would pan to show your character pulling the trigger, without explicitly showing the victim's head getting blown off) is a pretty good balance.

I agree - it's potentially really interesting and could make for an excellent gaming experience. It's a minefield, though, for a small game developer - imagine the headlines "New Video Game Teaches Kids To Torture!!". Nonsense of course, but it would happen. The comparison with Mass Effect is interesting, given that many people, and games raters, who throw a fit over sex and nudity turn a blind eye to appalling violence. Where does torture fit into that? If a pan away from an 'execution' gets an M-rating, does a pan away from torture automatically get the same? The game designers would also have to make important choices. As players, we'd get to choose whether we carry out torture or not, but the designers would have to decide whether the torture yielded useful information or not, and both those options are controversial and contested, it seems. The more I think about this, the more I hope they don't sidestep the issue, even if what they implement doesn't end up matching my own beliefs and values on the subject.

[sharkz]

On topic, as long as I see the boobs of every girl I bed in the game I'll be happy... I want to get something out of it!

[thepixiesrock]

Yeah, maybe they will just fill it with so much sex, no one will even notice the torture, and everyone will just be getting angry and writing letters about how there is too much sex. Or maybe there should be so much torture that it takes the heat off of all the sex, and so everyone will be getting all worked up and writing letters about all the grusome torture.

 

So basically, just fill the game with tons of sex and torture, and cover all of your bases.

[Shryke]

sex and torture?

 

why this game is sounding better and better!