The Decline and Fall of Europe

[samm]

Ok, agreed. Can I rephrase to: It didn't cause them, it was just one of the bigger parts responsible for the "Dark" part in Dark Ages as well as prolonging the period by aforementioned stuff?

[Pidesco]

I wouldn't say it was as much a cause but rather that it was built to fit the mood and ideas of that time. Augustinian philosophy was really gloomy, depressing stuff. He was like an emo.

[Musopticon?]

I'd like to voice an opinion here, perhaps even correct some stuff :

 

First of all, Saxons and Norse(or "Danes", as the group was called back then, despite the region of origin) were from the same root stock of Germanics, but the Saxons you(Nightandshapedude) refer to, the ones that conquered Britain and assimilated the earlier population of Romano-British and Gaels, were by the time that the Danish incursions began(8th century, with Lindisfarne 711) a very different blend of people. Essentially, the cultural synchretism displayed by Anglo-Saxons was complete enough that by the time Danes arrived, the languages had branched off each other completely, cultures had nothing in common when compared to Jutes and Saxcis of the 5th century, etc. True, once the Danelaw was set in and cultural exchange began, borrowing and phonemic change in languages, and constant intermarriages and land deeds in the realms helped the two cultures to blend together. Then again, it was the Danes that got assimilated, not the Anglo-Saxons.

 

Anyway, it really didn't matter by the time that idiot William got mixed in it.

 

Second thing, Christianity's effect on Medieval Europe was two-fold: It was a major force both culturally and influentially. The church, or rather the monastic orders, had worked as shelters of Antiquity. They were the only place, despite several renaissances throughout periods(check for instance the Carolingian renaissance) and courts, that still cultivated written word and actual learning, while the rest of Europe(with the exception of perhaps Byzantium and it's "colonies" like Venice) was pretty happy going gun-ho over whatever plant of land or un-converted tribe was hot back then. Like a culture trips actually, just with twohanders and hauberks. It's true that you really didn't get access to the knowledge without backing or a foot inside an order, but it's not like there was much interest for people anyhow, they were too busy trying to not get killed or eaten by diseases/witches/whatever. However, without convents and monasteries, we wouldn't have medical schools, or libraries or indeed universities, they were the root of learning(once things got a bit more settled and Europe wasn't burning), here in the hinterlands of Eurasia.

 

Cultural depots were one thing, the other wasn't so photogenic: Christianity was an easy banner to huddle under. Just like today, people got mad with religion and alcohol and they usually had some kind of armaments. And they often appeared in massive hordes. It's an interesting thought however, that sword-conversion wasn't started by the Church initially. At the end of Rome, the Empire had practiced a policy of anything-goes and Christianity wasn't preached with swords, it crept gradually into conquered regions, brought in by officers and soldiers alike. Later on, I think it was Charles the Great that started to forcefeed the faith, started with the baptism of thousands of Sax tribesmen held at sword-end. Awful business that, but Charles understood how ideologies could band people together. He wasn't even a devout himself. In any case, medieval conversion was a relatively peaceful matter, in the early periods, when the church wasn't centralized yet and tribal chiefs could baptize their whole realms with just their word. Similarly, the first missions were done by groups of unarmed(unless you call spades such) monks from Ireland and Scotland, into Frankish Europe and Norway.

 

Of course, once Europe started to get borders in place, religion got into politics, which were mostly about succession and wars back then, and suddenly Rome had armies and nothing much to do except start to bust up heretics. Because priests, and especially popes, are people as well. People, who had got their hands in Iberian gold and smelt the heady scent of relics Averroes and Avicenna unearthed.

 

Sorry for the topic devolution, I'll go babble somewhere else.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Musopticon?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

 

I can just see someone preferring Norse ethos to modern ones

 

What exactly is so funny about that?

 

The thought of you doing Odin's will with axe in hand.

 

If I told you that actually happends rather often would that frieghten you some? Because it does, but I use the axe to chop wood for a fire, especially at midwinter, bloody freezing!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

*snip*

 

You've forgot something, Constantine I.

[Musopticon?]

Wait, what?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Wait, what?

 

Oh Constintine, first Christian Roman Emperor, responsible for lots of stuff really, surely you've heard of him?

[Nick_i_am]

Religion wasn't a problem in europe until science started being practiced in ways that were deemed heretical.

 

Galileo, for example.

[Walsingham]

IMO this is turning into another religion vs science debate. So far as I can see all this fuss about Christianity is simply because some of you chaps don't know anything about the religions that came before. Bone up on what people did in the name of Ahura Mazda and come back. You'll find a tonne of forced conversions, witch-hurling, and penguin wrestling back then.

 

N&S if I understand your point correctly, we are actually far closer than at first appeared, in a sort of potato/pohtahto way. You mentioned that genetically we are homogenous in Europe. well, I'll but that for a dollar, and also buy that genetically we are homogenous worldwide. As I think you know.

 

However, as Muso says, it's hard to claim we're homogenous culturally in the UK. Certainly this puts strain on things. BUt it's also a boon in many ways. I'd be bored witless, not to mention educated to a lower standard were it not for so much intermixing.

[samm]

Musopticon?: It's always a pleasure reading from more knowledgable sources, so thx! Though I cannot agree on all points (e.g. medical schools), I don't want to derail this even further.

 

Walsingham: Yes we do. That's why I didn't say that everything would have been better if it stayed the way it was before, but rather that Christianity was not the saviour people think it to be.

 

On topic: Speculation by major banks on US estate values will massively influence the income of our country this year. I wonder what effects this will have economically and socially, in combination with the emeriging of an 'independent' Kosovo, where a rather 'big' minority of immigrants stem from. Further, the influence of major companies on the employment market shows its effects in ridiculously high wage demands by young people in the engineering and banking sector, as well as hire-and-fire shortsighted tactics that leaves younger employees uncertain about their future and older employees unable to find a job once they lose their job. It'll be an interesting year

[Humodour]

From an Aussie perspective:

 

I'm grateful for Europe's initialisation, influence and continued support of Australia as a country and culture, but I am also pleased that economically, politically and culturally we have chosen our own independent direction, not hesitating to disagree with EU if we see fit.

[WITHTEETH]

Without the dark ages, their would not have been an Enlightenment. Therefore there would be no United States based on the principals itwas based on. We're all connected.

Edited February 24, 2008 by WITHTEETH

[Nick_i_am]

And Iraq (the landmass) was once the seat of civilization that spread and laid the foundations for most of what followed.

[Walsingham]

On topic: Speculation by major banks on US estate values will massively influence the income of our country this year. I wonder what effects this will have economically and socially, in combination with the emeriging of an 'independent' Kosovo, where a rather 'big' minority of immigrants stem from. Further, the influence of major companies on the employment market shows its effects in ridiculously high wage demands by young people in the engineering and banking sector, as well as hire-and-fire shortsighted tactics that leaves younger employees uncertain about their future and older employees unable to find a job once they lose their job. It'll be an interesting year

 

I followed each point, but am not sure where I am now supposed to be. Surely all those issues have been around for a while?

[samm]

I'm not sure I notice these things to a greater extent now because I'm older and working in a company where I'm more likely to be affected by them. From my perspective it just seemed like the current year could become interesting and more seminal for the near future than previous years have been, and thus affecting the "decline and fall of europe" in discussion. Could be purely subjective though, call it a feeling

[Aponez]

Edited March 12, 2008 by Aponez

[walkerguy]

I didn't read article but I can tell its about a lot of military hardware that doesn't stop the fact that Europe is failing. They can't fight economic and political problems with guns.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I'm at work and don't have time for pruning, so I'm just going to lock the thread for now. When I get home in about two hours I'll take a proper look and see if the thread is recoverable.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Thread pruned and reopened. Please think over the following points:

 

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Steve

[walkerguy]

k

[Nick_i_am]

[Deadly_Nightshade]

After the lukewarm reception to the superjumbo this is pretty cool. I was worried Airbus would go under.

 

They should have never allowed so much of their future plans rest on that white elephant - it is neither practical or preferred.

[Nick_i_am]

Well, the Jumbo is a specalist aircraft and the old 747 is pretty damned old, but yeah, it looks like airlines are far more interested in medium-range smaller aircraft like the Dreamliner than in replacing their long-range fleets.

[Tigranes]

I found all the backlash at the time of the deal in the media very funny - senior US gov. officials were saying things like how its a disgrace the airforce has decided to forego an American company for a European one, and protests were held with slogans like "Our troops only deserve the best - buy American." Nobody seemed to realise (or want to realise) that actually, Airbus was preferred precisely because their aircraft were better in nearly every way than Boeing's. So, yes, the best for the American troops! Maybe if Boeing were better competition, then patriotism would be more practical.

[Colrom]

"If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the United States.)"

 

Zakaria's "average U.S. citizen" is a fantasy construct - the idea has the same relevance as the idea of the "average person working on an U.S. antibellum plantation" - the average of 1 master and 99 slaves. The average EU citizen may be less of a fantasy construct.

 

There are MANY other problems with his analysis but it isn't worth the effort really.