Cold War

[Nick_i_am]

To be perfectly fair, Llyranor, China considers Tibet and Taiwan its own territory. Now, we can debate whether that is actually the case, but if you're going to base your gauge of a country's likelihood to threaten the US by how it treats its separatist problems, then you have to throw almost every country in the world into your "threat list," because almost everyone's got separatists and ethnic nationalists of their own that they either actively suppress or sweep under the carpet. Look at the Maoists in India, for instance, the IRA in the UK, or even the Hawaiian sovereignty movement in the US.

[Llyranor]

Some do. Others don't. Taiwan just recently ousted Chen Shui-bian's pro-independence party in favor of the pro-unification KMT. As for Tibet, information is scarce but I'm sure that many ethnic Tibetans would like to be independent... Just as many ethnic <insert whatever> here would like to be independent of the nations under which they're listed. Does that change anything? The US didn't give independence to any of the people we absorbed and it's, once again, unreasonable to assume that other nations would do anything of the sort. In either case, forcing China on the issue is unlikely to make a difference, because Beijing would see through the hypocrisy and, based on the fact that we're trying to fragment their nation, cast us as a permanent threat with which there can be no compromise. Is that going to help the Tibetans and the Taiwanese, Sand? I doubt it.

 

In the mean time, you might want to look at the example of Hong Kong as a case when people thought that returning to the Chinese polity would've meant massive oppression and the end of the world. Today, Hong Kong is doing just fine with its own system, and many of those who fled the island in fear of the Communists are now returning. If Taiwan were to return to China under the supervision of the UN, I don't think things would be very different. In fact, it'd likely resolve much of the tension in East Asia, which would be better for all involved.

[Nick_i_am]

I don't mind one bit if they deem the US as a permanent threat because I consider them a permenant and hostile threat against us. There is nothing you can say that will make me change my mind on that. The only way I will no longer consider China a threat is when they have a complete and total change in their government and economic policies that is more democratic and capitalistic in nature.

[Llyranor]

I agree with your posts (the later ones, excluding those regarding Tibet/Taiwan) in this thread.

 

So long as nobody is claiming that we should face these challenges by means of pacifism. Everybody has the right to protect themselves, and often the threat of counter-attack is the only thing which keeps war and bullies at bay.

 

I agree with the idea that the US is a potential time-bomb if any sort of Hitler-like lunatic figure were to rise with the support of the people. The thing is, so is China (and a few other places). And from my point of view, China is more likely to breed such a figure or mindset than America is (here is where democracy/communism come in - a democracy has more checks and balances in place to prevent such a thing). That's basically the general crux of why I think we should arm ourselves in preparation of a Chinese offensive. It probably (or hopefully) won't happen, but that's not a certainty.

 

People always bring these arguments back to who has more missiles, but it's a lot more than that; allies, location, will, desperation, need, etc. Especially since you can only have so many missiles before the rest are gravy.

 

I also agree with, I think it was Xard, who said that the more we integrate China into the world economy and politics, the less room they have to pursue offensive solutions. But by the same token, that could backfire by making China an economic superpower without making it a developed superpower (freedom, human rights, contentment, multiculturalism, etc) - a dire combination, IMHO.

[Nick_i_am]

The fact that the US _might_ get taken over by a lunatic can be overstated. Anywhere can be taken over by a lunatic. Democracies are less likely; nothing more. But that does not automatically mean we must cripple the USA. IMO the safe option is no magic wonder theory. It's lots and lots and lots of hard work. It's a daily struggle for probity and integrity in our business, public and personal lives.

[Llyranor]

I admit I won't think its funny when the second cold war comes on quite strong with a new soviet order and an allied china. COLD WAR II

We need to reject China and Russia. Russia has always been a harsh nation from the Czars to Stalin and even today with their "democracy". Though not officially confirmed, Russia has been beleived to be breaking international pacts and treaties with tests and developments of weapons of mass destruction. (The U.S. is known to still mantain its stockpile and is even upgrading its nuclear arsenal.) NEW NUKES The U.S. needs to reafirm its postition as global leader by stabalizing the U.N. and calling for the Europeans to action, who are enjoying paradise with their EU and no major wars since WWII. Iran, Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan? The threat is Russia. The second major power is China. Who is weak? The U.S. Who lets the innocents die with not even condemnation? The U.S. Who no longer calls for inaction? The U.S. Who not only lets its country decay and fall behind "3rd world nations" on health care and other domestic issues? The U.S. Who has an incompetent leader? The U.S. Who allows China and Russia to go unchecked, funding, supporting terrorists, becoming economic tyrants? The USA. Who is letting their economy fall to deficit, inflation, outsoursing, over importing unsafe goods, and commiting suicide internationaly? The U.S. Today we are. Hopefully 2009 brings better fortune. Russia and/or China will challenge U.S. authority. UN authroity. The right to freedom and capitalism (with all its faults) will be challenged. A new age is beginning. The Second Cold War has begun. Likely you, your children, or your grandchildren will fight against China/Russia. Economically, Militarily, Politicaly, or by other means. The war has begun.

 

Who will stand? The only strong nation in the world is Israel. And look at them. Caught in a massive holy war since biblical times, poor guys. They fight for right and anyone who says otherwise has a terrorist complex bat.gif and needs to see a shrink. The reasons why Europe lost the first series of real world wars (Crusades) is because the damn muslims are too well trained. The christians did not commit barbaric atrocity. The muslims murdered innocent jews, chrisitans, pagans and more so we responded in the MIddle Ages with Crusades to reclaim the holy land for peace. After our defeat, they stepped up with Jihad attacks. They think Allah is true and think they shall get virgins for murder. It is not war. It is killing innocents. They are cowards. Any muslims, russians, or chinese extremists who think they have power by murder and games (cold war) are true cowards. They're promises are false. Their people must open their eyes and begin the revolution! Under democracy, they could florurish! We could all live in peace. When we got tired of living together someone can blast off to another planet (By 2100 this may be very possible). I admire bush for his attemts, but Iraq is pointless now, similar to Vietnam (PS Reagan was the worst "good" president ever, terrible ****) REAGANS AN **** The world's militaryization is haywire fear and umbrellas (if u know what I mean). We must stop inaction, on the US and European part, as well as our other good allies out there.

[Nick_i_am]

Well, if you go back far enough, back to World War 2, the US most certainly planted the seeds of the Cold War with the creation of the atomic bomb. As for Israel, it is the fault of the US and Britain why their is so much conflict in the Middle East over Israel. If Israel was cut from the lands of German and Italy, the Axis powers of Europe that caused World War 2 instead I don't thikn we would have as much conflict in the Middle East as we do now.

[Llyranor]

This isn't some joke. For your disrespect, I will reinterete. If somebody has something intellegent to say instead of stupid idiotic trash, come back, other wise shove your dissin head in Russia's nuclear sludge moron. Israel belongeds to Jews. The jews were enslaved and sent to egypt. With the prophet Moses they returned to their holy land which had been filled with pagans and sinners and retook it. Since then the Jews defended themselves in a non-stop holy war. I'm not a Jew but Israel hasn't existed just since 1948 and I'll be damned to hear otherwise. I'm sure Xard or Darth Hades would be happy to oblige. bat.gif

 

I admit I won't think its funny when the second cold war comes on quite strong with a new soviet order and an allied china. COLD WAR II

We need to reject China and Russia. Russia has always been a harsh nation from the Czars to Stalin and even today with their "democracy". Though not officially confirmed, Russia has been beleived to be breaking international pacts and treaties with tests and developments of weapons of mass destruction. (The U.S. is known to still mantain its stockpile and is even upgrading its nuclear arsenal.) NEW NUKES The U.S. needs to reafirm its postition as global leader by stabalizing the U.N. and calling for the Europeans to action, who are enjoying paradise with their EU and no major wars since WWII. Iran, Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan? The threat is Russia. The second major power is China. Who is weak? The U.S. Who lets the innocents die with not even condemnation? The U.S. Who no longer calls for inaction? The U.S. Who not only lets its country decay and fall behind "3rd world nations" on health care and other domestic issues? The U.S. Who has an incompetent leader? The U.S. Who allows China and Russia to go unchecked, funding, supporting terrorists, becoming economic tyrants? The USA. Who is letting their economy fall to deficit, inflation, outsoursing, over importing unsafe goods, and commiting suicide internationaly? The U.S. Today we are. Hopefully 2009 brings better fortune. Russia and/or China will challenge U.S. authority. UN authroity. The right to freedom and capitalism (with all its faults) will be challenged. A new age is beginning. The Second Cold War has begun. Likely you, your children, or your grandchildren will fight against China/Russia. Economically, Militarily, Politicaly, or by other means. The war has begun.

 

Who will stand? The only strong nation in the world is Israel. And look at them. Caught in a massive holy war since biblical times, poor guys. They fight for right and anyone who says otherwise has a terrorist complex bat.gif and needs to see a shrink. The reasons why Europe lost the first series of real world wars (Crusades) is because the damn muslims are too well trained. The christians did not commit barbaric atrocity. The muslims murdered innocent jews, chrisitans, pagans and more so we responded in the MIddle Ages with Crusades to reclaim the holy land for peace. After our defeat, they stepped up with Jihad attacks. They think Allah is true and think they shall get virgins for murder. It is not war. It is killing innocents. They are cowards. Any muslims, russians, or chinese extremists who think they have power by murder and games (cold war) are true cowards. They're promises are false. Their people must open their eyes and begin the revolution! Under democracy, they could florurish! We could all live in peace. When we got tired of living together someone can blast off to another planet (By 2100 this may be very possible). I admire bush for his attemts, but Iraq is pointless now, similar to Vietnam (PS Reagan was the worst "good" president ever, terrible ****) REAGANS AN **** The world's militaryization is haywire fear and umbrellas (if u know what I mean). We must stop inaction, on the US and European part, as well as our other good allies out there

[Nick_i_am]

http://atimes.com/atimes/China/JB12Ad01.html (the article deals with US vs. China, but it's not that particular comparison that I want to focus on)

 

Think about it from the perspective of someone living in another country, one perhaps not on the best of terms with the US. The US has enough nuclear weapons - and conventional weapons, for that matter - to destroy any country or set of countries in the world. The only thing holding back the US is American democracy, which in recent years have produced such great presidents as George W. Bush and candidates like John McCain. Now, the Americans don't seem like a serious people (at least not from our popular culture), and they don't seem like they want to take over the world - but are you really going to risk your life, and potentially the life of your people on the notion that Americans, ignorant and content as they currently are, will never fall under the sway of someone who did have ambition? What's to prevent, in other words, an American Adolf Hitler, who might ride in on the coattails of an economic depression?

 

It only takes one mistake of the US political system to send the entire world spiraling into chaos. It only takes one real threat to the untested, pampered, and sheltered Americans for a demagogue to rally the masses. There would be no shortage of scapegoats - the Pentagon invents them as a matter of course, to justify our inflated military spendings - and while the Americans are horrible at occupation, there is no reason why they must occupy. The Americans have been known to shoot first and ask questions later, after all. They don't seem like people you can reason with, once the fighting's started.

 

So, what would you do, rationally, in this situation? Well, in the short term, you know that you must pamper the Americans. Ally with them. Lower their sense of distrust, their reason to fear you. But in the long term? You don't want to sacrifice yourself for the Americans forever, and no amount of pampering will appease a truly belligerent leader, anyhow. In the long term you have no choice but to try and equal the Americans - for as long as they have an overwhelming military advantage, to the point where they can destroy you without you being able to touch them, you can never sleep easy. It's like living next doors to an alcoholic gun collector in Detroit. He might bid you good morning everyday and invite you to his house, but those nights when he holds them NRA parties... You're never quite sure whether those loud noises you hear are from his boom box or ... Or something else.

 

I believe that Americans are better than most when it comes to internalizing what we fear. Our political culture is based, in some sense, on threat politics, so we're quite familiar with it. So, I surmise, it should not be difficult to understand what fear does to a people. The fear of Islamic terrorists, however small of a threat they are to us, sent us into two wars in the Middle-East. We continuously play up the notion of a worldwide Islamic Revolution, wherein Islam would conquer all of Europe and send the world back to the twelth century. We belabor ceaselessly the point that the "liberal West" is "blind" to the threat of foreign immigrants, and that it will be too late before we have the guts to respond - another apocalyptic war, we tell ourselves, is inevitable. Such an active doomsday imagination we have, such a negative notion of other people... That it almost begs the question,

 

How would we act, if we were in their shoes? If Islam, or China, or Russia, were in control of the world, and not us? What if they had the power to annihilate us without us being able to do a thing about it, and the only thing we could do is hope that they will not, despite the fact that their politicians and media sources are continuously playing up the "threat" that we pose?

 

Such a scenario, I argue, is inconceivable to the modern American mind. We do not know fear as the rest of the world knows it. Thus, we do not understand why they would ever feel the need to militarize. In the eternal words of Donald Rumsfeld, "Since no nation threatens China, one must wonder: Why this growing investment [in the military]?" I can just imagine what the Chinese equivalent to the Secretary of Defense must have thought when he heard those words: "Indeed, what do we have to fear, but fear itself?"

[Llyranor]

Memento mori.

[Dark_Raven]

[Azarkon]

This thread is going places.

[Dark_Raven]

Spelled Censorship.

[walkerguy]

LEGAL???

[walkerguy]

.

Edited February 20, 2008 by walkerguy

[thepixiesrock]

Alright, close down the forums. Can't top that.

[Gorth]

Closed part on thread starters request and part on the suspicion that it would be hard to add anything that beats Nick and Llyranors contributions...