North Illinois University Shooting

[Sand]

You are entitled to your opinion, Tale, but then again so am I. The one thing that pisses me off in this entire affair is that people are trying to place the blame on something other than the shooter. Games are not the blame. Guns are not the blame. Television shows or musicians are not to blame. The blame lies solely on Steven Kazmierczak. He got the guns. He pulled the trigger. He is to blame. No more and no less.

[Gorgon]

I can't fathom how you all can keep up this collective self hypnosis, and keep repeating in all earnest how the easy availability of guns is not at all connected to the shooting sprees in your schools.

 

Denial is a powerful thing indeed.

[Sand]

Its simple. A gun cannot shoot bullets by itself. It requires a person to pull the trigger.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Sand

[Gorgon]

Ohh were back to that bit of nonsense again.

 

Yes, i'm sure the school massacres would have been done with sharpened kiwis regardless. After all a gun is just a tool.

[Tale]

You are entitled to your opinion, Tale, but then again so am I. The one thing that pisses me off in this entire affair is that people are trying to place the blame on something other than the shooter. Games are not the blame. Guns are not the blame. Television shows or musicians are not to blame. The blame lies solely on Steven Kazmierczak. He got the guns. He pulled the trigger. He is to blame. No more and no less.

"The one thing that pisses me off in this entire affair" are the people who think that anyone's response to a crisis or plans to prevent future crisis that don't revolve around doing nothing but preparing to point fingers at the perpetrator after the crisis are automatically labeled as shifting blame. Jack Thompson? Yeah, he's that kind of douchebag. But not everyone who speaks for reforms to prevent crisis are blaming.

[Guard Dog]

I can't fathom how you all can keep up this collective self hypnosis, and keep repeating in all earnest how the easy availability of guns is not at all connected to the shooting sprees in your schools.

 

Denial is a powerful thing indeed.

 

Gorgon did you read my last post? Guns have never been LESS available in the US than they are today. As I pointed out, 30 years ago any 18 year old could walk into a department store, buy a gun and ammo and load it there on the spot and shoot everyone in sight. But it just did not happn. By blaming it all on the guns you are pinning a fairly recent social phenomenon on an inanimte object that has been readily available to anyone who wanted it for hundreds of years.

 

If I were to seriously pose the argument that video game violence put the impulses in the shooters head therefore video games are to blame you would laugh at me. You would no doubt argue that video games are inanimate objects that are enjoyed by countless thousands of people who would never hurt a fly. How does that exact same argument not work on guns? I own several and I would not hurt a fly.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Guard Dog

[Tale]

Ohh were back to that bit of nonsense again.

 

Yes, i'm sure the school massacres would have been done with sharpened kiwis regardless. After all a gun is just a tool.

You have to understand. Sand doesn't actually care about whether or not anyone gets hurt. His only concern, and the only thing he thinks is important to anyone, is the topic of "blame."

 

Let me clarify. If Sand were to see a woman putting her child in the cage with a lion, Sand will be the first one pointing his fingers at the woman. Don't even try to get that kid out of the lion cage. No, that would just be blaming the lion, when you really should just be pointing fingers at the lady.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Tale

[Azarkon]

I blame postmodernist nihilism.

[Tale]

I blame postmodernist nihilism.

What did I do to you? Why are you making this about me?

Edited February 19, 2008 by Tale

[Gorth]

Its simple. A gun cannot shoot bullets by itself. It requires a person to pull the trigger.

Actually, it isn't quite that simple. It reminds me of basic firefighting training (as an analogy): A fire needs three things, combustable material, heat and oxygen. Remove one of them and you have no fire.

 

A similar thing applies to "school shootings". It takes somebody to pull the trigger, it takes a trigger to pull and it takes somebody to pull the trigger at.

 

Why did this guy want to kill people?

Why did this guy have a gun?

Did the guy want to kill these people in particular (as a group, not necessary as individuals)?

And so forth...

 

Lots of questions. Until somebody figures out the answers to all of them don't be surprised if it happens again as you won't know what warning signs to look for.

 

Edit: Substitute "figures out" with "understand" as opposed to "know". Knowing the answer isn't good enough, you need to understand the answer too

Edited February 19, 2008 by Gorth

[Gorgon]

I can't fathom how you all can keep up this collective self hypnosis, and keep repeating in all earnest how the easy availability of guns is not at all connected to the shooting sprees in your schools.

 

Denial is a powerful thing indeed.

 

Gorgon did you read my last post? Guns have never been LESS available in the US than they are today. As I pointed out, 30 years ago any 18 year old could walk into a department store, buy a gun and ammo and load it there on the spot and shoot everyone in sight. But it just did not happn. By blaming it all on the guns you are pinning a fairly recent social phenomenon on an inanimte object that has been readily available to anyone who wanted it for hundreds of years. A gun never killed anyone sitting on a shelf. it is the hand and mind that wields it that is dangerous.

 

If I were to seriously pose the argument that video game violence put the impulses in the shooters head therefore video games are to blame you would laugh at me. You would no doubt argue that video games are inanimate objects that are enjoyed by countless thousands of people who would never hurt a fly. How does that exact same argument not work on guns? I own several and I would not hurt a fly.

Ohh guns are not the only problem, far from it, there must be more catalysts at work here, but they are not completely removed from the context as you seem to want to believe, and if availablilty is 'less' but still 'more' than almost everywhere else it doesen't really help that much.

[Sand]

But not everyone who speaks for reforms to prevent crisis are blaming.

 

And those people aren't the ones pissing me off.

 

I do care if people get hurt, Tale. Using your analogy I would try to get the child out of the cage as quickly as possible, and if I had to hurt or kill the lion in the process I would. A human life is more important to me than a life of an animal, but I wouldn't be blind to the fact that the person responsible for this situation would be the woman.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Sand

[Meshugger]

We are not more evolved than we were back then. We have more advanced technology but that is it.

 

Possibly not in the way that you mean, but on a purely technical level, yes we are. Comparing the life expectancy, average height and cranium size of modern people to those who lived 2000 years ago attests to that much.

 

However, our behavior towards one another shows that we are as primitive as we were back then.

Speak for yourself. I don't recall clubbing any rivals for female attention lately.

 

Uh-hum.

 

Compare on how it is done today to get "the female attraction", the difference lies in sophistication, but it is still the same: Men do compete against each other for female attention.

[Sand]

Make all guns illegal then only criminals will have guns. If a person is determine to get a gun he or she will get a gun. It doesn't matter how easy or dificult. That person will get a gun and if that person has the desire to use it he or she will. A firearm is a tool, a means in which allows a person to do a very specific task. If a person so desires to do the task to kill or intimidate people and does not have access to a gun he or she will use some other device. Knives have been used in robberies quite effectively instead of a handgun. What we need to do is eliminate the motivation to use the gun, to understand that impulse, to detect it, so that we can prevent these sort of tragedies.

[Guard Dog]

Just to hit on one thing again. Firearm ownership is a Constitutionally guaranteed right. So to make illegal to buy or own firearms in the US you will need a pluarality of Americans to agree to surrender that right. I can promise you, that will not happen. I know many of you, especially Europeans, have difficulty getting your mind around that but let me remind you that for all of our similarities, the US is a very different place than Europe. We have a different history, different cultural values, and different mindset. I say this without casting aspersions on one or the other (something many of YOU should try) and making no claim as to which is wiser or more right. It just is.

[Sand]

Right on, Guard Dog!

[thepixiesrock]

What we need to do is eliminate the motivation to use the gun, to understand that impulse, to detect it, so that we can prevent these sort of tragedies.

 

What the crap?

[Sand]

Are you confused, Pixie Stick?

 

Those who cause such tragedies such as the one at NIU, Virginia Tech, the Omaha Mall, Columbine, and so forth were driven, motivated to kill and this motivation may be as simple as revenge or some complex delusion due to mental illness. If we can understand what causes these aberrant motivations within these troubled people we may be able to better detect the warning signs and stop further senseless killings.

[Tale]

Uh-hum.

 

Compare on how it is done today to get "the female attraction", the difference lies in sophistication, but it is still the same: Men do compete against each other for female attention.

 

People also still eat fruit and meat. This does not make you an american black bear. When you reduce anything enough, everything becomes the same.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Tale

[Sand]

People also still eat fruit and meat. This does not make you an american black bear. When you reduce anything enough, everything becomes the same.

 

Though it does make you an omnivore which gives you something in common with the american black bear.

[thepixiesrock]

Just like what he said, if you reduce things enough it's easy to compare them. Are you trying to make some sort of counter point or are you just re-enforcing his point? Because if you are trying to make some other point that relates to the contention that we haven't evolved much, your point is going to turn out to be a mistake.

[Sand]

Pixie Stick, you of all people should know that my posts rarely have any point to them at all.

[mkreku]

I say this without casting aspersions on one or the other (something many of YOU should try) and making no claim as to which is wiser or more right. It just is.

One has a school shooting per week, one has not. Pardon me for claiming one is wiser and more right.

 

If it's not the easy availability of guns, then what is it? What is so fundamentally different about the American mindset that guns are a non-factor in the equation? So far in this thread you've all been pinning the blame on mentally disturbed people. Since you have many more shootings, something IS different, that much is clear. Logically (according to YOUR logic) since it's not the amount of guns that causes it, it must be the amount of mentally ill people. Are you saying Americans are more mentally ill than other people in the world? Is it your health care system that's failing? Are Americans just more perceptible to mental illnesses?

[thepixiesrock]

Yeah, but I feel if we address what the real issue is, and undesrtand your impulse to post like that, then maybe we can isolate the real problem and prevent these sort of posts from you.

[Tale]

Thought crime and mind control is the answer.