Hacking a Democracy

[Meshugger]

I recently watched the documentary, described in the title, and the findings were more or less appaling. Public officials and Diebold representives behaving very arrogant, and how easy it was for the finn (yay!) to hack one of their machines, only using a memory card, and no tampering was done on the voting-machine itself.

 

More information about the famous "Hursti Hack".

 

My thoughts? Electronic voting is expensive, unsafe for outside tampering and ultimately doesn't serve the public. Paper voting might take longer, but it costs less, and is more easier to recount and detect eventual frauds.

 

Your thoughts?

[Meshugger]

Oh, the documentary can be viewed at YouTube, for those who are interested.

[Humodour]

I agree. Paper voting is appropriate. That's what it is in Australia.

 

Of course, you could probably still hack the machine the results of the paper count are stored on.

[Meshugger]

I agree. Paper voting is appropriate. That's what it is in Australia.

 

Of course, you could probably still hack the machine the results of the paper count are stored on.

 

Yeah, but a recount is still easy and possible when there's physical ballots.

[Walsingham]

Just to throw something in, a couple of counters to the paper ballot:

 

1. Voters who have to arrive in person to vote are very vulnerable to intimidation. I have seen gangs outside polling stations in South Africa, and 'policemen' peeking into voting booths in Thailand. Maybe this doesn't apply so much in the first world, but if things started sliding, it could become an issue.

 

2. how hard would it be to fake a paper ballot if you really set your mind to it? I've never given it much thought.

[Blarghagh]

I don't think electronic voting means you don't have to show up, does it? I think we're talking voting machines at polling offices here (correct me if I'm wrong). So that concern stands whether or not it's paper or electronic.

[Humodour]

Just to throw something in, a couple of counters to the paper ballot:

 

1. Voters who have to arrive in person to vote are very vulnerable to intimidation. I have seen gangs outside polling stations in South Africa, and 'policemen' peeking into voting booths in Thailand. Maybe this doesn't apply so much in the first world, but if things started sliding, it could become an issue.

 

2. how hard would it be to fake a paper ballot if you really set your mind to it? I've never given it much thought.

 

1) I've never heard of that happening in Australia. I don't think it applies in the first world, yeah. And I don't know about America, but Australia is pretty tight right now - that is we are very well off economically, we're politically very stable, physically isolated, have immense oil/gas/coal reserves and are fairly self-sufficient food-wise... we're good to go for a long time, barring a world war or something.

 

2) Harder than faking an electronic ballet, no?

[Walsingham]

I don't think electronic voting means you don't have to show up, does it? I think we're talking voting machines at polling offices here (correct me if I'm wrong). So that concern stands whether or not it's paper or electronic.

 

Aha. My mistake. So then why have electronic machines at all?

 

Krezack, I don't know. let's have a think about it and see if can do better! What would you need to do to fake a paper ballot?

 

I suppose points of access:

 

1. Falsely apply for and recieve ballot papers.

2. Hijack ballot boxes before counting.

 

Any other points of access? Forget how practical they are at this point.

[Humodour]

Krezack, I don't know. let's have a think about it and see if can do better! What would you need to do to fake a paper ballot?

 

I suppose points of access:

 

1. Falsely apply for and recieve ballot papers.

2. Hijack ballot boxes before counting.

 

Any other points of access? Forget how practical they are at this point.

 

I don't fully know how they work, but I imagine being one of the sorters would give you some access points to rig stuff.

[Walsingham]

I'm asking someone to think through the process. So far as I can see, in the actual polling station it is very hard to forge any meaningful uantity of votes. By meaningful quantity let us say 500, since this amount will shift many marginal British parliamentary constituencies.

 

My first option of being issued with more balllots looks rather dubious. I can't imagine touring marginals with a team of actors. But it just might be possible if we possessed access to the electoral register and market research which gave us some indicator of whether an individual were going to vote or not. Still, a risky business.

 

Stealing/swapping ballot boxes strikes me as wise. Can anyone see a problem with this? I suppose the total number of ballots cast would be recorded by the team sending out the ballot box and checked by the receivers. But would there be any other checks?

[Humodour]

All papers are accounted for - including errors. So yeah you'd have to find a way to get past that check.

 

I also imagine that the number of people who vote must add up to the number of votes cast.

[Walsingham]

Hmmm. I think we should give more thought to this. After all if we can find a way to hack a paper ballot we'll have set back the already frail cause of democracy by years!

[taks]

that's actually probably the best way to cheat any election... put more voters on the ballot than there actually are (registered). there's usually a lot of headroom since not everyone registers.

 

of course, knowing what the problems with electronic voting are is the first step towards corrective action (one of the notes in the wiki seems to indicate some locations have already taken corrective action). it's got a way to go before being viable as a "standard" of operation for every election.

 

taks

[Meshugger]

Register to vote? What kind of red tape is that?

 

Maybe i don't understand how the procedure of voting is in different states in the US, but shouldn't a card of identification be enough?

 

Anyhoo, point being is that voterfraud is always possible, but electronic is still more vulnurable to tampering, and it is more expensive as well. Paper ballots still work the best for the time being.

[Gfted1]

In the U.S., registering to vote has three functions. The first is to ensure you are of age to vote (at least 18), the second is to direct the voter to the proper location to cast their vote (usually somewhere in the town they live) and the third is to ensure there arent more votes cast then there are people (so no one person can travel from voting location to voting location casting many votes).

[Meshugger]

In the U.S., registering to vote has three functions. The first is to ensure you are of age to vote (at least 18), the second is to direct the voter to the proper location to cast their vote (usually somewhere in the town they live) and the third is to ensure there arent more votes cast then there are people (so no one person can travel from voting location to voting location casting many votes).

 

Is it a "state vs federal"-issue that makes it so complicated?

 

And where i live, i get a "call of voting"-card with information on the where i should vote (after one turned 18 ofcourse), where i show my identification and i get a ballot, and my name i marked as "have voted" in their registry. Whether i cast my ballot or not is up to me, i have still voted in the eyes of electorial commission (or whatever it is called).

[Meshugger]

Eh, nevermind. I just realized that they check my name AND social security number in order to get a match. And since everyone has a social security number in this socialistic heaven of ours, there's no need for a seperate registration

 

Carry on, nothing to see here (Except for the documentary, highly recommended).

[taks]

Is it a "state vs federal"-issue that makes it so complicated?

nope. with the exception of little town-hall type votes, just about all elections require registration. not everyone in the US is allowed to vote, even if they are of age (felons, for example, are often denied voting privileges). having an SSN is not even required, though many other things are difficult to do without one. just about anyone can get an SSN or a driver's license, even if they are not citizens, so that can't be the deciding factor. even if it were, those take a while to expire even after someone's death (which is one way to cheat, btw, register dead people). of course, i was still on the voting list in florida (of all places) two years after moving to colorado... hehe. they were still demanding that i perform my civic duty in the form of jury duty, too (florida, at least melbourne, uses voting lists). dang bureaucracies.

 

taks