The Peoples View On the "Gray Jedi" class of Neutral

[qt3.14159]

NO NO NO

 

It is easy to misunderstand whole "balance of the Force" deal. It is Dark Side ONLY that causes imbalance in the Force. "Balanced" state of the Force is when good guys are "on command".

 

You should consider Force as sort of an body and Dark Side as kind of virus that infects the body thus causing chemical etc. imbalances in it

 

All Anakin ever had to do was destroy the Sith which he indeed eventually did.

 

We'll have to disagree on this one, I guess... unless you want to look at it from the aspect that the Jedi Order had become so corrupted that it wasn't really light side any more either... which is a valid way of looking at it, I guess. But I will adamantly stick to the idea that the Force wanted the Jedi Order cleared out and started over.

[walkerguy]

Sorry, but the Jedi were not corrupt, except Anakin. I agree with Xard dark side is the infecting virus, though I see what qt3 means about KOTOR2. Also, Xard, Vader/Anakin only destroyed Palpatine. Can't assume the Sith is therefore simply fully destroyed...

Edited April 16, 2008 by walkerguy

[Xard]

Canonically sith were destroyed for once and for all in RotJ.

 

Which makes that Legacy or whatever books even more lame than they are. Stupid dumb****s screwing the storyline badly.

 

NO NO NO

 

It is easy to misunderstand whole "balance of the Force" deal. It is Dark Side ONLY that causes imbalance in the Force. "Balanced" state of the Force is when good guys are "on command".

 

You should consider Force as sort of an body and Dark Side as kind of virus that infects the body thus causing chemical etc. imbalances in it

 

All Anakin ever had to do was destroy the Sith which he indeed eventually did.

 

We'll have to disagree on this one, I guess... unless you want to look at it from the aspect that the Jedi Order had become so corrupted that it wasn't really light side any more either... which is a valid way of looking at it, I guess. But I will adamantly stick to the idea that the Force wanted the Jedi Order cleared out and started over.

 

 

Sorry, this isn't up to interpretation. George Lucas himself said what I said. (though I tried to elaborate it with my body allusion)

[walkerguy]

George Lucas said 4,5,6 were the "middle" back in the 70s. I suppose hes not up to "finishing" the story.

[Jediphile]

George Lucas said 4,5,6 were the "middle" back in the 70s. I suppose hes not up to "finishing" the story.

 

He said that before "Empire Strikes Back" came out, but by the time he did "Return of the Jedi", he had already abandoned the original idea of nine movies, hence Leia became Luke's sister in order to tie up the mythology quickly.

[random n00b]

You mean wiping out some jedi kids? Thats all he did. And maybe some minor jedi, padawans, and Mace Windu's arm. Besides that nothing. Unless we're talking post-III & pre-IV era which I know nothing about.

He killed quite a few Jedi *Masters* and Knights.

 

 

Canonically sith were destroyed for once and for all in RotJ.

 

Which makes that Legacy or whatever books even more lame than they are. Stupid dumb****s screwing the storyline badly.

You are aware that there are different levels of canon, right?

 

Also, all officially licensed SW works must first receive the approval of LFL, which is the ultimate authority on canon, not you.

 

Regardless of your opinion, Legacy is canon...

Edited April 16, 2008 by random n00b

[Xard]

Only EU-canon or C-canon as it is called, smartass

 

When I'm talking about canon I usually mean G-canon

[random n00b]

Only EU-canon or C-canon as it is called, smartass

 

When I'm talking about canon I usually mean G-canon

Eh, so? It is canon nevertheless. And if you are talking about movie canon, be specific. That may save you the need of going off on a rant, foaming at the mouth, when you are corrected.

 

And lay off the hostility, kid. Internet tough guys are boring.

[walkerguy]

What Jedi masters? I see nobody in episode III killed by Anakin and the Clones but younglings and padawans.

[random n00b]

This guy.

 

That, in the movie itself. Quite a few more in the EU.

[walkerguy]

In the film, he is seen only briefly in a holographic recording,

 

I guess that counts...

[Jediphile]

This guy.

 

That, in the movie itself. Quite a few more in the EU.

 

Not sure if Cin Drallig counts. It depends on what you mean by "jedi master", which is a highly ambiguous term in that it can mean three things:

 

1. A prestige class, as seen in TSL.

2. Any jedi who has taken a padawan, but may or may not be on the council. E.g., Qui-Gon.

3. Any member of the Jedi High Council, whether they have a padawan or not. E.g., Atris.

 

Now, I don't count option 1, since it only exists in game terms. Besides, judging from the description, Cin Drallig seems more like a "jedi weapon master" anyway.

 

But the description says very clearly that he was not on the Jedi High Council, so he would not count as a master in the sense that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin or Kit Fisto do.

 

You could count him as a master only in the sense of training jedi and having padawans.

 

But I do believe when people talk about Anakin killing a master, they're talking about members of the jedi high council, in which case Cin Drallig would not count.

[walkerguy]

I dont exclusively mean council members personally.

[random n00b]

Not sure if Cin Drallig counts. It depends on what you mean by "jedi master", which is a highly ambiguous term in that it can mean three things:

 

1. A prestige class, as seen in TSL.

2. Any jedi who has taken a padawan, but may or may not be on the council. E.g., Qui-Gon.

3. Any member of the Jedi High Council, whether they have a padawan or not. E.g., Atris.

 

Now, I don't count option 1, since it only exists in game terms. Besides, judging from the description, Cin Drallig seems more like a "jedi weapon master" anyway.

 

But the description says very clearly that he was not on the Jedi High Council, so he would not count as a master in the sense that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin or Kit Fisto do.

No. Jedi Master is a well defined rank in the Jedi Order, attained by means of training a student past the rank of Padawan, or by passing a tougher version of the Knighthood trials. Sometimes by special dispensation from the Jedi Council, as in Obi-Wan's case. It is in fact better defined than Jedi "weapons" master, that is more an unofficial designation for the more martial-focused Jedi than anything.

 

Council members were appointed by already existing councilpersons based on unspecified reasons, probably orthodoxy. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master, as was Dooku before he quit. Neither were in the council.

 

 

But I do believe when people talk about Anakin killing a master, they're talking about members of the jedi high council, in which case Cin Drallig would not count.

I don't see how being in the council is relevant when it comes to Anakin's Jedi (master) victims. The Council held the political power of the Order... its members needn't be the best with a lightsaber.

[Jediphile]

No. Jedi Master is a well defined rank in the Jedi Order, attained by means of training a student past the rank of Padawan, or by passing a tougher version of the Knighthood trials. Sometimes by special dispensation from the Jedi Council, as in Obi-Wan's case.

 

Wrong. Upon attaining the rank of jedi knight, not master, Obi-Wan could take a padawan, if he chose to. However, only potentials trained in the order are usually eligible. The council's dispensation lay in them letting him take Anakin, even though he was judged too old to join the order, not in allowing Obi-Wan to take a padawan. When Yoda mentions Qui-Gon's defiance of the council, he speaks about his choice to take Anakin against the wishes of the council, not about Qui-Gon training a padawan at all, which they clearly accepted.

 

Council members were appointed by already existing councilpersons based on unspecified reasons, probably orthodoxy. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master, as was Dooku before he quit. Neither were in the council.

 

And they were masters because they trained padawans.

 

Yes, jedi master are established in the order, but the term is ambiguous.

[random n00b]

Wrong. Upon attaining the rank of jedi knight, not master, Obi-Wan could take a padawan, if he chose to. However, only potentials trained in the order are usually eligible. The council's dispensation lay in them letting him take Anakin, even though he was judged too old to join the order, not in allowing Obi-Wan to take a padawan. When Yoda mentions Qui-Gon's defiance of the council, he speaks about his choice to take Anakin against the wishes of the council, not about Qui-Gon training a padawan at all, which they clearly accepted.

No. Any Jedi with at least the rank of Knight could take a Padawan, and doing so didn't automatically promote her to Master. Obi-Wan attained the rank during the Clone Wars (linky), not immediately after taking Anakin as his pupil. That was the "special dispensation" in his case.

 

 

And they were masters because they trained padawans.

 

Yes, jedi master are established in the order, but the term is ambiguous.

No. They were Masters because that was their rank (no info available on how they attained it, AFAIK). And the term is only ambiguous if you consider only the movies. There's a boatload of content on the Jedi Order in the EU...

[Jediphile]

Any Jedi with at least the rank of Knight could take a Padawan, and doing so didn't automatically promote her to Master.

 

Still makes them masters to their padawans. Thus we have ambiguity. QED.

[random n00b]

No, that makes them teachers to their padawans, not Masters. Addressing and referring to a Knight as "master" is apparently nothing more than a sign of respect, not an actual consideration of formal rank.

 

Surely you don't think that everyone that is addressed as "sir" actually holds a nobiliary title, do you?

 

But yeah. From the perspective of the movies exclusively, it's an ambiguous subject. Like many, many others...

[Xard]

EU ****ing sucks - keep it away from the movies when trying to make "logical" explanations

 

"O.E. m

Edited April 18, 2008 by Xard

[Bass-GameMaster]

Maybe it doesn't "seem" like a ranking issue, it clearly is. When a master takes a padawan, the padawan is completely new (most of the time) he is somewhat scared in a since of awe of his masters powers. So I still think of it as a ranking issue, few Padawans ... are granted master robes..

[random n00b]

EU ****ing sucks - keep it away from the movies when trying to make "logical" explanations

Lol yes. Because we know that SW is, above all, ruled by logic.

 

EPIC fail.

 

Oh, and your regard of the quality of the EU is of no consequence. Canon is canon, and different levels of canon are only relevant when there are conflicting sources. This is not the case so what we know about ranks in the Jedi Order from the EU is all there is to it.

 

 

"O.E. m

[Bass-GameMaster]

Bump?

[Jediphile]

Bumping is not allowed.

 

It also equals necroposting, and you know what that means...

 

[Bass-GameMaster]

Hmm, thats new to me, Lets say I was outta ideas.

[Xard]

"whoops"

Edited June 28, 2008 by Xard