Mask o' the Betrayer!

[Cantousent]

Don't you guys remember the "A" team? One of the characters on that one was "Face."

[Spider]

That's funny. I used epic spells a lot during the game. Then again, I'm sure your uber character/party would kick sand in the face of my pathetic party. :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

 

Hardly

[Cantousent]

Enough posturing, Spider. I concede, you're totally awesome. You're a master player while others are just hacks.

 

However, Vampiric Feast was too powerful. ...And before I bugged it, it was even more powerful. The fact that you refer to the spell as a panic button is a bad sign. After all, if there's anything that you hold in abayance because it's "too easy," then there's an error in the build.

 

Now, aside from your absolute total awesomeness to which you've attested multiple times, there should never be one singular thing you can use as the last resort. Difficult battles, which you've never faced because of your total awesomeness, should require variation in tactics and abilities.

 

BTW: I played a lowly spellcaster in virtually all of my balance runs and the only battles that I found difficult are battle you never faced. Take from that what you will. There are battles that, at one point or another, were impossible. Bugs can make any battle impossible.

 

The question really isn't whether you're just totally awesome. I'm giving you a hard time, but I really don't doubt your prowess. Hell, Sawyer could probably beat the game in his sleep. My point is that Vampiric Feast is overpowered. What I take from all this (remember that I'm giving you a hard time) is that you're taking the opportunity to brag whereas I'm actually reflecting on the design.

 

If you think that you're unique in that you created a build that could defeat the game easily, you're wrong. There will always be powerful builds and particular styles that dominate any game. That's all well and good. What I'm talking about is a specific aspect that, in and of itself and by itself, is an easy pathway to victory in any battle.

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, Spider, but I don't know why you feel so determined to convince us of your total awesomeness. I believe you. That's fine. I've seen a lot of folks playing the game. Some of them could defeat it just as easily as you did and probably faster, of that you can be sure. That's not the issue. I'm making observations about the design, so I'll concede your total awesomeness and then hope that you can break away from that mantra to discuss the design issue or shut up long enough for others to do so.

[Spider]

I had no intentions of bragging. Sorry if it came across that way. I was joking about the superior play skills. Just because I'm serious most of the time, it doesn't mean I'm serious all of the time.

 

I really have no need to brag about anything. I was talking about the epic spells and the limited experience I had with them. I wish I could talk about how overpowered they were (I'm sure they are), but I just never tried them and felt like sharing that. If you note, the post where I entered this particular discussion I actually adressed two other topics and mostly mentioned the Epic spells in passing. You picked up on that though in a joking matter (at least the immediate response).

 

So I tried to joke back and then elaborated as to why I never felt the need to use them. Again, not with the intention of bragging.

*shrugs*

 

Also, how you can find my post detracting more from the thread than the three obvious spam posts (one of which is yours) directly above mine is above me.

 

I could actually keep going a bit, but I think this is enough. I'm actually starting to get upset for real with the thinly veiled insults you spread out in that post. No need to make matters worse, I suppose.

 

After reviewing my posts I can see your pint somewhat. The first couple of days I guess I pointed out I felt the game was easy a bit too much. But I haven't after October 16, until these posts. And I certainly don't think I've bitched enough about it to be told to shut up.

 

I suppose I should have caught on to your annoyance after your first reply to me. But I didn't. That's my bad I guess.

 

I've also got a reflection about effects like Vampiric Feast in general. And this is concerning game design in general and not how it's applied in MotB (although it's a lessone learned from MotB, at least from my perspective). I would actually prefer it if games included some sort of "I win" effect in exchange for a general higher difficulty. Now I suppose you're going to accuse me of bragging again, but whatever. Up the difficulty so veterans find it challenging, but give the other players a way to compensate. This way advanced players can chose not to use the "I win" effect, but other players don't have to resort to console commands (since there are those who thinks "cheating" in a single player game is wrong). I'm guessing that's why the spell is in the game in the first place. To give even hideously nerfed characters a way to beat it. Every character has to be able to beat every game and all that.

 

(on a side note, my definition of a panic button is not a spell that will automatically win me any fight. Instead it's what I use when I get the "Oh ****, I need breathing room NOW!" feeling. Vampiric Feast and the poultry spell both fit that bill. Best example though is Dragon's Breath from Throne of Bhaal though)

[Tigranes]

Actually, I have a funny experience with those pesky epic spells. I couldn't be bothered to read the manual for MOTB before starting you see, and one of the pet peeves I have with that game is if you don't meet the prereqs for a certain feat it is not viewable in the Level Up list at all; so I never even realised Spellcraft was the prereq for epic spells, and left everyone's at something like 20. So no Vampfeast, epic fowl, epic gate, etc, until I got to something like Thay Academy and said, "hang on, I'm supposed to be epic." Then yeah, Vampiric Feast blew my socks off, things were a lot easier after that. Before I was really struggling on core difficulty with Okku, and a couple of other fights. It's probably a good thing though, since I enjoyed it, mostly. Okku was just too damn hard without epic spells though.

 

So second playthrough, well... I still forget to use epic spells half thet ime since they're not on quickcast (heh), but VF is definitely a lifesaver at best and huge overkill at worst. It should be a bit weaker, because it makes later epic spells rather disappointing, but oh well. I just wish there was an epic version of Disintegrate that actually looked good, instead of the crap we have now. I mean, white squares?

Edited October 28, 2007 by Tigranes

[Cantousent]

Oh, I think my post was unduly harsh. This seems especially true in the cold light (dark really) of my early morning hangover. My 4:30 guilt demands that I atone for my boorish behavior. :Cant's wan smile icon: However, you hit the nail on the head about one thing that frustrated me. You said right away that you hadn't even used the spell and so I kept wondering how you could comment on it.

 

Frankly, I completely agree about the difficulty level. If Vampiric Feast (or any other spell) is overpowered, but you never even saw it because you blew through the game, then there are other problems afoot. ...And, while I was definitely being a big meanie to you, I never doubted that you'd managed to put together a powerful party.

 

The problem is that difficulty is relative. What's going to be difficult for some players will not be difficult for others. In fact, whether they've developed good instincts, crunched all the numbers, or are just plain lucky, some folks will breeze through a DnD game that stops others cold. This is especially true of a higher level campaign with a huge number of choices. You just know what you're doing better. ....And I mean that sincerely and without rancor.

 

To make the game difficult for the best players will make the game damn near impossible for folks who aren't as experienced. I think that would be a legitimate design except that NWN2 comes with a toolset that will allow some folks to create modules that will test the mettle of more serious gamers. the commercial product should appeal to a broader group of people, and therefore it will have to find a difficulty balance that some folks find too easy.

 

I've been thinking to myself, since I posted my remark, why I was so irritated with your responses. I'm ashamed to say that I think it's because I'd written that I thought most folks would find MotB harder than the NWN2 campaign whereas you'd stated that you felt it was far easier. You know, it's just stupid that I attacked you because I felt insecure about my personal review of the game. For that, I apologize.

 

However, even if the game is supposed to be relatively easy (and I've said all along that MotB would not test the mental accumen of the best players) there are some things that are overpowered. I include Vampiric Feast in that mix. I also think Okku is overpowered. Bigby's Clenched Fist is way overpowered and, for folks who don't have a way to deal with it, is almost certain death. In fact, when Okku used to turn on the party in the Gulk'aush fight, I could cast it on him and he would virtually always fail his grapple check against it. You all know how strong Okku is. I think clerics are overpowered in DnD in general.

 

Anyhow, enough of a rant. I should have been much more mature.

[Pop]

Otherwise it was Okku, Gann and Safiya most of the time.

backed up by a healer that can cast spontaneous heal

?

[Xard]

Gann/Spirit Shaman PC/Favored Soul PC is very effective healer.

 

edit: nvm, none of them have spontaneous heal...

Edited October 28, 2007 by Xard

[Pop]

It only really jumped out at me because the last time I played PNP, I was playing as a neutral cleric with spontaneous healing, and another player was puzzled by the fact that, mostly out of habit from BG day, I made it a point to memorize healing spells. Especially at early levels, freeing up those slots and relying on spontaneous casting can make characters a lot more versatile than they would otherwise be.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Pop

[Tigranes]

Only clerics do, so no idea. But then, Spirit Shamans pretty much have 'spontaneousish' heal, I end up using all ~6 spells from that level (7?) on Heal.

 

I do agree with Cant by the way that Okku is another damn overpowered beast. For those frustrated by NWN's general clunkiness and camera issues and control issues and whatever though, I think Okku would be great to have around - just stick in there and the battle is a whole lot less unmanageable. I just play with low settings, pause every 0.5 seconds and don't mind the camera, and with my crap rig is used to all the lag, so.. yeah. I just wish you could turn off all water effects, the Skein is a nightmare and I'm already cheating through it as fast as I can on my second playthrough. Though if you take Gann and OoM there are some delicioius dialogues.

 

By the way, in the Academy, did anybody actually try to leave with more souls than they were allowed? The cutscene is actually pretty funny, the trap truly fowls you.

[Starwars]

Haha, yeah. I tried that on my first playthrough, though I think the cutscene kinda bugged out a bit. There was a *huge* pause before something happened. I thought the game had frozen and was about to restart when it finally started working.

 

Performance wise, the worst areas for me was Mulsantir, Imaskari Ruins and the Skein. Mulsantir obviously has much stuff in it and there is also the presence of water, just like in Blacklake or the Docks District in the NWN2 OC. It's mainly near the water I got slow-downs, and if I turned off Water reflections and refractions I got smooth performance. I'm not normally one who cares about the graphics, but I do like nice water effects a lot (and I think NWN2s are very nice), and so I do have the options turned on anyways. I might try turning them off in the Skein next time though to see if that improves performance there.

 

Other than that, the MotB areas had pretty good performance for me.

[Tigranes]

Oh, it was much better than, say, NWN2 1.00, when basically the whole game ran at 5fps for me. I still dont' know how I chugged through it, and had massive fun, to boot. I just lament that the Skein tileset design has running and falling water built into every milimetre - I'm sure it does look very nice for other people though. It looks nice even without reflections/refractions and on 3fps.

[Istima Loke]

Last night I finished the game. Maybe I think I 'd prefer a different ending but, yeah, the game is great!

Edited October 28, 2007 by Istima Loke

[Xard]

What ending you got?

[Istima Loke]

I plucked my soul out of the wall and then I found the faceless man, cornered him, fought him and summoned the boy and the red wizard to give him back his self. I was a lawful good paladin.

 

I actually don't know what are the other endings, I just had an urge to tear down the wall. (I'm definitely going to replay this game, whether it's possible to do so or not)

Edited October 28, 2007 by Istima Loke

[Xard]

I recommend reading (now that you can do it without fear of spoilerz) reading this topic. That Wall bit been frustrating

 

It's propably WotC's fault. After all OE can't rewrite their damn cosmology...

 

Anyway, there are 4 endings, "optimal good", "good", "optimal evil" and "evil".

 

"Optimal" here meaning best possible ending for your companions. If you get "optimal good" part for Kaelyn, she and her siblings keep fighting "guerilla war" against wall, attacking and freeing few souls at time and escaping before Big K could do anything.

 

That change from "unoptimal" Kaelyn ending ( it deeply saddened me, Kaelyn was my favorite companion :sad: ) which I got first time I completed game made difference and the fact I couldn't bring wall down didn't annoy me as much. Sure, maybe we couldn't bring God down in his own realm, but at least our cause wasn't completely useless and/or defeat. Long live guerilla warfare!

 

 

You got that if you triggered the "optimal" good ending. (Of course, if you didn't take Kaelyn with you into city of Judgement you didn't get anything but who wouldn't take her?)

[Spider]

Otherwise it was Okku, Gann and Safiya most of the time.

backed up by a healer that can cast spontaneous heal

?

 

I meant Gann. Afaik, clerics don't get to cast Heal with spontaneous casting? They get mass cures instead when they reach that level, right? If Gann gets Heal it's pretty much like spontaneous casting for him (and he had it when I picked him up).

 

@Eldar: It's quite possible I overreacted a bit as well. I just tend to get a bit mad when anyone tells me to shut up. So we both got to blow of a little steam. No harm, no foul, let's do it again tomorrow (or maybe not).

 

And I know that increasing a game's difficultu will cause nightmares for less experienced players. And I have pointed out in the past that I think me having played too many D&D crpgs have affected how I view games. But there needs to be some way to accomodate that in difficulty settings. Make the core difficulty as it is, but when you play at the hardest I expect a fair challenge.

 

For example, I just started replaying Fallout Tactics. Feeling a bit ****y I figured I could play it on insane difficulty (and on tough guy, I just can't stay away from those extra XP). I couldn't get past the first mission. Hell, I could hardly get past the first encounter. It was so bad that I actually had to lower the difficulty just to be able to keep playing. And the difference is noticable. It's still quite difficult at times, but at least now it can be done. I just want the difficulty sliders to matter more. In MotB the damage doubles, but there's still enough HPs to go around. The main problem is that there aren't enough casters and the ones who are there have a pretty underpowered spell-selection. I simply wish THAT would have been something the difficulty slider could adjust.

 

I was only advocating higher standard difficulty if some means for the less experienced player to "auto-win" tougher fights, like apparently Vampiric Feast, was included. But allowing for higher impact from difficulty sliders is a better solution.

 

I'm bitching about difficulty because it's starting to be a problem with crpgs for me. I like the character building aspects and I like to replay trying out different characters. When replaying I also like to try out power builds. But with the lack of difficulty (for me) that has been the trend in later crpgs, that part of replaying a game is lost to me. And if a game isn't challenging the first time even, I get less enjoyment from it. Now MotB excelled in other areas, so it was still a great playthrough, but I have yet to replay it. With other crpgs I really liked, I typically started a new character right away. Now it's been two weeks and I still haven't felt the inclination. So yes, this does mean that my enjoyment of the genre as a whole is lessening. And I don't like that at all.

[Istima Loke]

I recommend reading (now that you can do it without fear of spoilerz) reading this topic. That Wall bit been frustrating

 

It's propably WotC's fault. After all OE can't rewrite their damn cosmology...

 

Anyway, there are 4 endings, "optimal good", "good", "optimal evil" and "evil".

 

"Optimal" here meaning best possible ending for your companions. If you get "optimal good" part for Kaelyn, she and her siblings keep fighting "guerilla war" against wall, attacking and freeing few souls at time and escaping before Big K could do anything.

 

That change from "unoptimal" Kaelyn ending ( it deeply saddened me, Kaelyn was my favorite companion :sad: ) which I got first time I completed game made difference and the fact I couldn't bring wall down didn't annoy me as much. Sure, maybe we couldn't bring God down in his own realm, but at least our cause wasn't completely useless and/or defeat. Long live guerilla warfare!

 

I really got saddened by Kaelyn's ending, she was a great character. That means I have to replay again as a good character, to get the optimal. Thanks for the info.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Istima Loke

[Tale]

I was closer to being saddened by One of Many + Safiya's ending.

 

Oh, that bastard. Though, I did like my (what I guess is) "optimal evil" ending.

[Xard]

For me Safiya's ending was very nice

 

Of course my PC did have romance with her so naturally it was happy-happy ending. Isn't the other version something like she buries herself in her studies and live alone in Founder's chambers and dies alone?

Edited October 28, 2007 by Xard

[Tale]

All I know is that as an evil character who romanced Safiya,

One of Many kills her

. Bastage!

Edited October 28, 2007 by Tale

[Xard]

**** **** ****

 

That's so frickin' awesome I'd liked to NOT be spoiled about that.

 

Well, **** happens *shrug*

Edited October 28, 2007 by Xard

[jaguars4ever]

Hey Xard, that Kaelyn ending's actually the one I got. I don't have to heart to replay it for her infamous "sad" ending. :sad:

 

So go ahead and post those screenies too.

[Tigranes]

Wowzah, I let One of Many devour Myrkul and it said it had a new voice that wanted to speak to me alone - so I dismiss party members, and 'lo, its Myrkul who's revived himself in the shell of OoM. Diplo-check failed despite 30diplo / high charisma and he killed me, game over.

 

Will have to try that again.

[jaguars4ever]

No way! That's awesomeness on par with PS:T's Silent King.