Extremism and racism in Saudi Arabia

[SteveThaiBinh]

An interesting article about racism and extremism in Saudi Arabia from the Times. The author was here in Jeddah, though a little before my time, and most of my colleagues know him. Much of what he says confirms my own experiences here, though as I

[Sand]

I would also walk out. Violence will only bring more violence.

[Gorgon]

The irony is that as a whole, Europe can only be described as very keenly aware of the Palestinean situation and considerably critical of the overal Israli strategy.

 

Kids will be kids, it's one thing to showboat, actually strapping a bomb to yourself takes a great deal more conviction, or a great deal more desperation and depression.

[Walsingham]

I agree with Gorgon, there is a definite difference. Many of the chaps I went to school with claimed to be patriotic and willing to fight for Blighty, but virtually none of them have volunteered at any time for either the regulars or even the reserves. Howwever, I would argue that there is an even smaller likelihood of someone actually strapping ona bomb if they have been brought up in an environment where such acts are not vocally encouraged.

 

I have been considering this problem even more than usual of late. I think a large contributing factor is the massive increase in the number of jobless young men in many of the countries newly riven with extremism. Wea re talking here hundreds of thousands yearly growing to job-seeking age with no job and little prospect of one. Unscrupulous politicians and civil leaders are appealing to these people by claiming their position is the fault of some American conspiracy. The parallel with anti-semitic propraganda at the start of the last century is made laughably easy by the inclusion in many speeches of actual anti-semitic propaganda!

[metadigital]

Yeah, the real cause is the "lost generation" of poor who have no prospects. Even if there is no heavenly reward, they could reasonably decide that ending their crushing poverty (and giving their next-of-kin some prestige) is a fair exchange. Of course there is no chance that all but a tiny minority will actually hear any counter argument, and even then it will be more likely a nihilistic plea than an explanation of foreign cultural values.

 

Don't forget that bin Laden is a Saudi, and his poltical agenda is a direct result of the Saud royal house and its relationship with the US. Apart from a "jihad" against the US, he also wants to topple the aristocracy and supplant it with a Caliphate (God's law above man's, which means a theocracy with someone interpreting God's will on Earth).

[Sand]

I hate theocracies.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The peculiar problem with young Saudis is wealth and joblessness, rather than poverty and joblessness. For many and for the students mentioned in the article (mostly university age or after), they have excellent paper qualifications (degrees or masters degrees), but these correspond to almost no practical ability because the universities are so corrupt and chaotic they just keep passing students regardless of their achievement. They won't do the jobs that they are capable of doing because they think those jobs are beneath them. They can't get the jobs they want because there are millions of guest workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Philippines who are more skilled and will do the job for less money. So they're stuck - bored, demotivated and with DSL internet access paid for by daddy.

 

The Saudi government is, I think, genuinely trying to distract the people from Islamic extremism - since al-Qaeda hates the House of Saud as much as it hates the West (more perhaps), but they're doing it after years and years of ignoring it or exploiting it. I don't think the environment or general public attitudes will change overnight, and of course, when Iraq is finally 'finished', all the Saudi extremists will hop back over the border and start making trouble here.

[Sand]

Excess of resources and no true moral guidance. That is a very bad combination. I will never understand the urge of people wanting to blow things up in real life. I mean its all well and good in video games or in the movies, but the line needs to be drawn when it comes to doing it for real. Also I don't get why people need to go to extremes in their beliefs and force those beliefs on others. Don't they have any respect for others? Just because someone isn't Islamic does not mean they deserve to be killed and some worthless jihad. Life is too short as it is to be caught up in something like that. Life is to be enjoyed, not scarred by violence. If people just left each other alone and have a more moderate and respectful view of each other and the world in general a lot of suffering would just go away.

[metadigital]

The peculiar problem with young Saudis is wealth and joblessness, rather than poverty and joblessness. For many and for the students mentioned in the article (mostly university age or after), they have excellent paper qualifications (degrees or masters degrees), but these correspond to almost no practical ability because the universities are so corrupt and chaotic they just keep passing students regardless of their achievement. They won't do the jobs that they are capable of doing because they think those jobs are beneath them. They can't get the jobs they want because there are millions of guest workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Philippines who are more skilled and will do the job for less money. So they're stuck - bored, demotivated and with DSL internet access paid for by daddy.

Then these students will not be interested in suicidal homicide. Homicide, possibly.

[theslug]

I talk to this Mideastern kid online sometimes and he says everyone sucks in there and that everyone is crazy except the Sunnis. So i believe him since my perspective on the Mideast is that they all live in the sand like jawas and stuff. Even though I know they drive cars and have cities like Dubai there are still sand people who kill civilians and have never heard of the word "compromise."

Edited April 28, 2007 by theslug

[Gorgon]

Doesent sound like a bad gig being a Saudi citizen, sit around on your ass and have the princes shower you with wealth to preserve an anacronistic system of governence

[Jorian Drake]

I hate theocracies.

not theocracies or faiths are evil, some people are

[Sand]

I hate theocracies.

not theocracies or faiths are evil, some people are

 

The sum and worth of a religion is the people it is composed of.

[Gorgon]

Basing civil law on religion is biggotry, no two ways about it.

[Walsingham]

I hate theocracies.

not theocracies or faiths are evil, some people are

 

Well, I agree that evil people are the big thing here, but bear in mind that people in the middle can be encouraged by institutions and circumstance to be worse than nature intended. I believe in the principle of democracy, that denial of equal rights before law, and the capacity for peaceful protest and expression are absolutely necessary. Remove these rights and you have an inevitable tendency to abuse by those in authority.

 

Sluggo, you should consider chatting to Steve here a bit more. There is a great deal more to Islamic culture than living like jawas. Not that it wouldn't be cool, mind you.

[Sand]

There is a great deal more to Islamic culture than living like jawas.

 

When I was in Bahrain I got a good dose of Middle Eastern and Islamic culture.

[Walsingham]

I'm not certain the glf emirates should be described as anything other than 'bizarre'. Too much money, not enough sense in my opinion.

 

I noted this article on Saudi:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6592123.stm

 

Indicating that massive percentages of young men in Saudi are sending porn amongst themselves. This seems to support the notion that living as a young man in Saudi must be quite stressful.

[Gorgon]

It's holy jhad porn. Chicks posing with bomb vests and AKs.

[theslug]

I hate theocracies.

not theocracies or faiths are evil, some people are

 

Well, I agree that evil people are the big thing here, but bear in mind that people in the middle can be encouraged by institutions and circumstance to be worse than nature intended. I believe in the principle of democracy, that denial of equal rights before law, and the capacity for peaceful protest and expression are absolutely necessary. Remove these rights and you have an inevitable tendency to abuse by those in authority.

 

Sluggo, you should consider chatting to Steve here a bit more. There is a great deal more to Islamic culture than living like jawas. Not that it wouldn't be cool, mind you.

I know I was being a dirty bigot. I know Islam and such is very cultured and respectable, I was kind of just commenting on how I'm guessing many youngins in America see the Middle East. I mean when I think of the Middle East the first thing that comes to my mind is vast amounts of sand and sand colored houses made of mud and such. I mean even on the news you don't really see how developed it is. You may see like a city that resembles more like a ghetto Mexico or something. It's just crazy over there. Everything is crazy. It's crazyness.

[Walsingham]

I totally apologise if you felt I was accusing you of being bigoted. You made it very clear that you knew you'd been fed a weird slice of views on the culture. I should have been more clear. I just thought you might enjoy finding out more, and Steve could probably help.

 

I also found it interesting to contrast this discussion with the huge rallies held today in Turkey by hundreds of thousands of Muslims demanding the continued division of church and state. It's got to drive the Islamists mental to see it, and sadly may mean Turkey gets targeted even more than before.

 

It is also interesting to note that today saw protests against the lack of action against the genocide in Darfur. Another ostensibly Muslim regime.

 

I think this huge range of country types in the 'same' faith give the lie to any notion that all Muslims are the same, if proof were needed.

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm not a fan of the middle east.

[Walsingham]

I'm not a fan of the middle east.

 

You mean you don't have a 'go mideast!' pennant on the wall?

[SteveThaiBinh]

I'm happy to chat any time about Saudi culture and life, though I'm no expert and only get a view of one segment of society in one city. There are stories that do the rounds about how dangerous it can be for a foreigner who strays off the beaten track in the countryside - villages where you're likely to be shot on sight, and so on. It's all 'a friend of a friend told me', so who knows how much truth there is in it? An official email went out from my employer a few days ago warning of a foreigner in Riyadh who'd given a lift in his car to a Muslim woman, not his wife. He was arrested, imprisoned, beaten and ultimately deported. You can't share a care with a woman you're not related to, unless her husband or father is also present. But then we all knew that. We wonder if there might be more to that story than they're letting on.

 

Taking students into the computer room (which has internet access) requires constant vigilence. Yes, they do try to download porn from time to time, if they think no-one's watching. It only takes one muttawa to see one student looking at nuddy pics to get the school closed down for a year.

 

There's a huge variety of people here, as you'd expect. Plenty of students from Egypt, Syria - all over the Middle East, and a great diversity of views. Some of the most open, tolerant and respectful-towards-other-cultures students I've met are Yemeni. That certainly doesn't fit the Western view of that country.

 

If you have a view of the Middle East as backward or ghetto-like, do a google image search for the Dubai skyline.

[Gorgon]

I heard of a Danish guy who got thrown in jail because his foreman said he theought he smelled alchohol on his breath. he them admited he had a drink on his lunch break. he was sentenced to 30 lashes.

 

Do they really do that ? it sounds so cartoonish.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Gorgon

[Walsingham]

I remember being in a class with a chap from Oman, and we got on pretty well. He even made an effort (unlike his colleagues also from Oman) to get to know the Indian and Pakistani students. Which I guess was something of a culture shock. Sadly there was some actual violence between the groups. Some of these skinny pimped up Omanis actually fancied themselves as gangsters and got handed their own asses when they picked on the much tougher guys from further east.

 

Anyway, I got talking to this chap about his views on women, and he said words to the effect of "I wouldn't allow my wife to be in a room with another man. They'd obviously get up to no good." I laughed far too loudly out of surprise, and asked if this was inevitable. He said "Yes, women are like that." I asked if it was entirely the woman's fault, and he replied it was. So i asked if he would permit me to be in a room with his mother, and of course he went very quiet, knowing full well that I could be trusted, and so could his mother. He saw quickly tht teh notion that all women were hussies and couldn't be left alone was nonsense, and the very notion insulting to all parties. [Athough now I think on it, maybe thi sis a sad comment on how things work in the region]

 

I must say that while I used to pick holes in many of the ideas he came to the UK with he was a tremendous gentleman, and never quit talking about things. Generous with his time, and attention. Sadly he wound up having to return home to take part in an arranged marriage to his cousin. No fooling. You've never seen anyone look so ill, but he had to do as he was told.