And thus, another anniversary for a heinous and tragic event is created.

[Walsingham]

Gentlemen! There's nothing to be gained by slinging ... erm... I don't know what the analogy demands you to be slinging, but it isn't doing us any good.

 

I think, if we are being generous, that as Aram alludes the debate on slavery and the constitution is relevant to the debate on gun control. I may have misunderstood, but we are saying that slavery was in the constitution, but we have since grown out of it. We can do the same thing, and many would argue that we SHOULD do the same thing, with guns.

 

If we are going to draw on the constittion here I would refer to the fact that the amendment refers to a 'well regulated militia' not random yahoos. The militia is referred to elsewhere in the constitution in ways that implies it is a regulated body of men. I have no great affection or admiration for your 'militias' but they have a far greater claim to the legitimate bearing of arms than any individual. Moreover as I have said before:

 

1) a regulated militia implies the capacity to vet people who bear arms to see if they are three bananas short of a cupcake.

2) is far more credible defence against oppression by the State than a mess of individuals

[Sand]

He can have his lollipop. I know full well what the bill of rights, the declaration of independence and the constitution are, and here he goes again, fishing for cheap points.

 

Sorry council, you have already made your discredit argument, simply repeating it over and over again will not increas its effect.

Yep, repetition is so lame. I should know.

[Cantousent]

Heaven knows Gromnir can be a pit bull when it comes to this stuff. However, it really does undermine your point when you make a quote to defend your position and cite the wrong work. ...And it's ridiculous to think that your sparring partner won't make an issue out of it.

 

For my part, I thought Gorgon made an error, but it was an honest mistake. I also understand that much of his underlying argument, and his best arguments altogether, really don't revolve around the constitution. At heart, he's making arguments against current US gun laws. That's fair enough. Like it or not, however, there is not yet enough of a movement to ban guns in the US. Maybe that will change with the recent shootings. Only time will tell.

 

My position on firearms is this, I don't like them. I don't participate in the 'gun culture' that prizes firearms for their own instrinsic beauty or value. I don't attend gun shows and last fired a weapon some fifteen years ago. Maybe more.

 

...But I'm leery of giving up my right to bear arms. Personal rights sometimes come at the expense of personal safety. This is fitting. ...Because personal rights are the point of a democracy, not personal safety. In fact, why not ban speech or religion? I would actually feel guilty making that comparison if :Cant's avoiding an angry Eldar moment and toning down his rhetoric icon: only others had not cleverly associated gun ownership with slavery. Essentially, I think Aram is right. The right to bear arms, no matter what opinions foreigners might declare regarding our constitution, is part of the American psyche. The best that you can hope is that advocates of outright banning can take advantage of the recent tragedies to push their agenda.

 

That's the idealistic argument. The practical reason we can't ban guns is because they're already there. Do we go house to house to search for the weapons that people already have? Would it then be a crime to possess something that's been in your family for generations? Some weapons are prized for their craftmanship and appearance. Do we insist that the owners disable them? ...And who will check? Banning guns will return us to the halcyon days of prohibition? Prohibiting guns would not end any better and perhaps even worse.

[Walsingham]

You echo a comment one of my colleagues made last week before the incident, which was that it was too late to repeal gun ownership. I'm not certain about that, but having studied prohibition, and the subsequent war on drugs, you can understand my skepticism.

 

What I don't agree on is the notion that a gun culture is somehow immutable. Culture is inherently changeable.

[Cantousent]

Of course it is. I don't suggest that the culture cannot change. I'm saying the culture has not, as yet, changed. In fact, incidents like the ones this week probably usher in such changes, although it's quite a bit easier to buy alcohol and cigarettes in the United States than it is to buy a gun and they have both proved to be quite deadly over time.

[Walsingham]

Of course it is. I don't suggest that the culture cannot change. I'm saying the culture has not, as yet, changed. In fact, incidents like the ones this week probably usher in such changes, although it's quite a bit easier to buy alcohol and cigarettes in the United States than it is to buy a gun and they have both proved to be quite deadly over time.

 

Well, you have a point there. I don't know the stats for the US but we have about 100,000 alcohol related deaths in the UK each year.

 

*thinks*

 

Totally random but why not have a 'responsible drinker' card that gets you money off booze? Not much, like 5%, but enough so you'd avoid doing anything that would get it revoked. Incidents get you points against your card like with driving.

[metadigital]

What a great idea!

The kid was old enough and he had a clean record. Though he was a foreign student, I believe legal immigrants can apply for a type of permit that lets you purchase firearms without being a citizen. The guns were obtained legally, and at the time that he bought them, there was no reason they shouldn't have been.

See, this is the problem. If I plan to go nuts, I'm hardly going to prevent myself by doing something illegal before the big crime. Kinda like being a Jedi all the way up to Korriban, and then turning to the Dark Side and becoming a Sith for the rest of the game.

 

This is where some form of provisional licencing would be useful. Even having a gun club (for example) sponsoring people, like a co-signatory on a loan.

 

It is a bit silly in the UK, however, as the Olympic Pistol team have to travel overseas to practice ...

The problem isn't the prevalence of guns, it is the poor management of the purchase. It seems more difficult to get a licence for a dog.

[Cantousent]

I just thought this might add a little levity to the discussion. I was guffawing.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18237342/?GT1=9246

[Walsingham]

I just thought this might add a little levity to the discussion. I was guffawing.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18237342/?GT1=9246

 

This echoes my previous pleas to have walking frames and buggies replaced with power-loaders.

[Aram]

Looking back at some previous posts, this looked pertinent.

 

http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2007/04/2...d7798473383.txt

 

Disturbing essay details revealed

 

 

By NICK SWEDBERG - nswedberg@nwherald.com

and ERIC R. OLSON - eolson@nwherald.com

Comments (80)

CARY

[Walsingham]

Interesting, as you say. Rather heavy handed, though.