Revan's redemption

[Knights&Darths]

I think Master Ell is totally right, what the Council committed was a crime and they should take responsibility for their choice, still they were at war so you can hardly blame them, it was the smart thing to do. The fact that mercy was involved doesn't make the dishonor of being used any more bearable however, nor it does erase the disgrace of tampering with the mind of a wounded which they didn't even bring down themselves. I do think the choice would have been uncertain if Revan and Bastila were alone there. In the end I don't think that was really a redemption anyway, after all it was a Jedi who made that decision not the Dark Lord of the Sith, he wasn't that anymore, he had changed already and that was not his choice.

[Masta Revan]

I like this topic you put up but anyways I totally agree on what you just said there. It was a crime and yes Revan would have definitely left with Bastila if Jolee and Juhanni weren't there at the time. No it was not Revan's redemption but maybe later though. Also you know the jedi didn't care about revan at the end after playing K2 especially vrook and atris after all of that it didn't matter. The only person who actually cared about revans rights was Kreia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah by the way shouldn't this be under spoilers

Edited February 13, 2007 by Masta Revan

[DarthVala]

Probably Star Wars Universe, because spoilers is for K2. But yeah, good topic. I agree with a lot of what you said, though I do think it was his redemption.

[SilentScope001]

Well, it was probraly should be considered a True Redemeption anyway. He had seen his past, and he now get to turn away from it. It's up to him to decide what to do after he knows his past, and figured out the truth.

 

Jhunai and Jolee is what really swayed my LSM Revan not to support Bastila, so if they were gone, I would join with Bastila regardless of alignment. Guess their predictions of doom were correct...

 

I actually wanted to vote "an act of war" and a "crime", because it was indeed a War Crime. They mindwiped him which was a crime, and they did it to win a war. But mostly, however, it was an act of war, and it can be justified as providing Revan with that True Redemeption anyway. Maybe.

 

There was a topic on this issue in LucasArts' forum and it was really...interesting how it turned out.

[DarthVala]

I actually wanted to vote "an act of war" and a "crime", because it was indeed a War Crime. They mindwiped him which was a crime, and they did it to win a war. But mostly, however, it was an act of war, and it can be justified as providing Revan with that True Redemeption anyway. Maybe.

 

Well, desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. I can kinda see how being in war justifies such an act, but it is still a crime to all Jedi to strip them of the force without their approval. So I guess I'm in the middle on this one.

[Guest The Architect]

Well duh it was LS (canonical) Revan

[Xard]

2nd question is kinda lame, since it depens on your roleplaying

 

Oh, and I'll be back with teh

[Dark Wastl]

Can't really give an answer to any of those questions.

 

no.1 depends on the point of view.

Yes, it was his choice to remain a lightsider, even when Bastila tried to turn him.

But on the other hand, he wouldn't even have thought about it, if it weren't for Malak firing on his ship, nearly killing him and destroying his mind. Revan without amnesia simply wouldn't have done it.

 

no.2 entirely depends on how you play the game. If you played Revan as a pure lightsider, who wanted the Bastila he knew, not having Jolee and Juhani wouldn't have mattered. A Revan who only cares about being with Bastila might have ended up being in trouble without them.

 

As for no.3, I'd say neither of the three choices works for me.

It wasn't an act of mercy, the Jedi wouldn't have done it if Revan hadn't been the key to the secrets of the Sith army.

It wasn't an act of war, as the Revan who existed before was all but gone. If they had captured him not half dead and then wiped his mind, yes, it would have been an act for war, but the Jedi weren't responsible for the state he was in, nor did they wipe a healthy mind.

For pretty much the same reasons it wasn't a crime, either. It would have been a crime if they had turned "Revan", but "Revan" was gone, they couldn't have saved him even if they wanted to. Not telling the whole truth isn't a crime.

 

The Jedi always manipulated others if they thought it was necessary, that isn't against the code.

[Wolfmann]

I think Master Ell is totally right, what the Council committed was a crime and they should take responsibility for their choice, still they were at war so you can hardly blame them, it was the smart thing to do.

 

I don't see how it could be a crime anymore than the Jedi Strike team going over to apprehend, or kill Revan. The actual decision to go over to apprehend Revan wasn't one. It was a decision to assassinate him, but one balanced on the grey anvil of morals the Jedi Council seems to rock itself back and forth on.

 

In times of war, we must accept an adjustment of the most fundamental values. Even the values we may be going to war over. I can't say restoring him as an LS character was a smart thing to do, because there was no intelligence in the decision.

 

There was simply opportunity and luck. There was, however, Wisdom in being able to act in the manner they did and do what they did. I don't think it was ever a crime, though.

 

The fact that mercy was involved doesn't make the dishonor of being used any more bearable however, nor it does erase the disgrace of tampering with the mind of a wounded which they didn't even bring down themselves.

There was no mercy involved. They could have easily left Revan dead, or he could have died as a result of his wounds or their manipulation.

 

Chances are, however, the strike team would not have stood against Revan. Bastila's physical skills were no match for Revan, and she was the leader of the group. Maybe, she could have used her influence on the other's, but unless they sent truly remarkably gifted jedi guardians with her, or Knights that studied a style like Vaapad, a Sentinel or Consular would not have been able to stand against Revan. Bastila, and the strike team, would have failed.

 

It was simply dumb luck the situation played out like it did. Which makes the story even more intriguing. KOTOR1 was brilliantly written. KOTOR2 is like any middle-sequel - mildly flat, with a few brilliant moments that make you want to find the conclusion in KOTOR3.

 

I do think the choice would have been uncertain if Revan and Bastila were alone there.

 

Assuming Revan is a LS male, there were plenty of previous temptations and corruptions that Revan had to overcome to become a strong LS character (which as a redeemer of the Republic and Jedi you HAVE to assume he became...if he was DS, he would be the worst of the Dark side...Jolee Bindu represents the middling factor, or the Grey Side).

 

By the very nature of being a strong LS character, and knowing they already have a sound set of morale values, Revan would've stood by his position with or without Jolee or Juhani's influence.

 

In the end I don't think that was really a redemption anyway, after all it was a Jedi who made that decision not the Dark Lord of the Sith, he wasn't that anymore, he had changed already and that was not his choice.

 

The Jedi Order created Revan as an enemy. His experiences at Malachor V, however, did something to Revan's allignment - but it may not have been mystical in nature. I think something more common may have happened completely unrelated to the war, or to Revan's character.

 

When Revan went to war, the Jedi Order blamed the war for turning Revan to the dark side - of corrupting his values. Revan's values weren't corrupt, he went to war because he saw weaknesses in the Council's decision...and the Council was hedging it's bets, and did not feel Revan was as strong of a stategists and tactician as he turned out to be.

 

Revan was largely in control of the war against the Mandalorians. Had he not met them before they were ready to engage the Republic and Revan's forces, the opposite would've been true. So timing here was instrumental in allowing Revan the time it took to figure the Mandalorians out. The Mandalorians were unprepared and not strong enough to really gain a critical mass - the critical mass they would've obtained had the Jedi Council intervened when it wanted. When it did eventually come to final battle at Malachor V, the Mandalorians foolishly let their wunder lust and warrior mentality commit themselves to a final all or nothing confrontation, when they should only sent a moderate force to keep Revan busy, while the remaining forces continued their conquest.

 

You can understand the Council's rservations and decisions. Revan knew this, and knew the Council's decision to wait was the wrong one. If the objective of the Jedi Council is to protect the Republic, it was clearly the wrong one. If it is the objective to protect the Order, then it was the right one.

 

In the end, you don't go to war with the Mandalorians, under the auspices of saving the Galaxy, then come back and decide to kick the crap out of the Republic and Jedi Order just because he faced some form of judgment or punishment. And Starforge or not, even if Revan's allignment turned to the Darkside, the decision to take over the Galaxy is still inconsistent. Revan found the Starforge well after the Mandalorian war, out of a decision he never made.

 

So something turned Revan against the Jedi Order and Republic. Back on topic...

 

I think Revan's experiences on Malachor V confirmed, or introduced something for him. Inserted a piece of knowledge that was missing that confirmed for him the Nature of the Force. I think the Jedi Order itself knew, or understood, despite what they were saying, what that element or piece of knowledge was and had originally forbid him from going, lest he find it.

 

By and large, the Jedi Order created Revan not only as an Enemy, but also as a Sith Lord. Possibly, to keep him from finding the truth or information, the Jedi Council tried to assassinate him under the auspices he was already a Sith Lord. But that may have been very much furthest from the truth. There is proof of this corruption in Atris and other Masters on the council.

 

The very thing they wished to prevent, they had created. And when they had the opportunity to re-program Revan, you could argue this was their way of attoning for past mistakes...their Redemption.

 

But until KOTOR3 is released, that's all speculation. ;-)

[Wolfmann]

2nd question is kinda lame, since it depens on your roleplaying

 

Oh, and I'll be back with teh

[DarthVala]

And according to Atton, Revan was a female. But obviously his point of view can be changed. But I agree with the canonical choice of the Exile being female, it just seems right.

[Darth Mortis]

I've always been of the opinion that what the Jedi council did was understandable...but still wrong. Ultimatly they were using the ends-stopping the Sith-to justify the means-wiping Revans mind.

 

While they might console themselves with the idea that they gave Revan a second chance at redemption, forced redemption isn't redemption at all as there is little, if any, choice in the matter. Even Jedi Master Zez-Kai Ell, who was a member of the council (and I would assume could have been on of the Jedi Masters to wipe Revans memory) Admits that Redemption wasn't Revans choice.

 

I think the Jedi Order itself knew, or understood, despite what they were saying, what that element or piece of knowledge was and had originally forbid him from going, lest he find it.

I think it is more likely that the Jedi council sensed that there was a darkness comming, and that it was connected to the Mandolorian war. This would explain why they were unwilling to step in to help the Republic-they were trying to work out what the danger was. The Irony is that the danger-Darth Revan-was only created because they didn't act at all. Had the Council acted from the beginning maybe Revan would never have become a Sith Lord.

 

By and large, the Jedi Order created Revan not only as an Enemy, but also as a Sith Lord. Possibly, to keep him from finding the truth or information, the Jedi Council tried to assassinate him under the auspices he was already a Sith Lord. But that may have been very much furthest from the truth. There is proof of this corruption in Atris and other Masters on the council.

 

The very thing they wished to prevent, they had created. And when they had the opportunity to re-program Revan, you could argue this was their way of attoning for past mistakes...their Redemption.

 

Exactly, although commiting such a crime as in wiping Revans mind does seem to be a very strange way to redeem themselves.

 

And according to Atton, Revan was a female. But obviously his point of view can be changed. But I agree with the canonical choice of the Exile being female, it just seems right.

 

Attons line is an in-joke. The designers of KOTOR intended Revan to be Female, but Lucas Arts decided that Cannon Revan was Male. Thats why Atton says Revan was female.

[Wolfmann]

I've always been of the opinion that what the Jedi council did was understandable...but still wrong. Ultimatly they were using the ends-stopping the Sith-to justify the means-wiping Revans mind.

 

It is always the intent that does count. But what if they really didn't wipe his mind. The act of restoring him to life, simply created a new personality, per se. They say they wiped his mind, which may have been their intent, but what if the process did that anyway?

 

You can almost justify any course of action, if you really look hard at it. That is the ethical dilemma we face regularly. Justification, no matter how shallow or how righteous, allows us to live with our decisions even if hindsight is 20-20.

 

Exactly, although commiting such a crime as in wiping Revans mind does seem to be a very strange way to redeem themselves.

As a way of starting from scratch, it could be seen as a redemption. But let's face it...what were they going to do with Revan if they captured him? I don't think they were going to capture him. They had every intent on assassinating him, for one reason for another. Darth Malak's betrayal simply played in to their hands, and they took advantage of it.

 

Through fact or foil, the Jedi Council saw Revan's resurrection as a Redemption of their values, and of attoning for past mistakes.

 

 

Attons line is an in-joke. The designers of KOTOR intended Revan to be Female, but Lucas Arts decided that Cannon Revan was Male. Thats why Atton says Revan was female.

 

Having Revan and the Exile being opposite sexes, however creates a nice balance point. I have no problems with the canon.

[Darth Soterios]

what the council did was an act of war. you cannot mind-wash such a one promising of redemption.

[DarthVala]

I was a crime of war is what it was. The council did something that normally wouldn't have been thought about, yet they were so greedy they wanted to take away half the battle by removing the force from it.

[Guest The Architect]

2nd question is kinda lame, since it depens on your roleplaying

 

Oh, and I'll be back with teh

Edited February 15, 2007 by The Architect

[SilentScope001]

Well duh it was LS (canonical) Revan

Edited February 16, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Guest The Architect]

SilentScope001, note that I'm not of the opinion that Revan sacrificed himself/herself to the dark side to save the Republic. I agree with everything you said, and believe that if it turns out that Revan was trying to save the Republic via creating a Sith Empire and starting a Jedi Civil War war of conversion, then he/she was an IDIOT.

 

Now, I never said that self-defense was immoral. Self-defense is not an immoral act; it is different from murder, as you know.

 

To me, what the Jedi Council did was WRONG. The Jedi Council evidently didn't trust Revan to know who he/she was, and even if you play Revan as a goody goody on his/her way to LS mastery, by the time you reach Dantooine, they still don't tell him/her the truth.

 

If Revan was redeemed, then it was his/her accomplishment and certainly not the Council's. They only saw him/her as a pawn to be played in their game of tactics against spandex man Malak, and that's exactly how they used Revan too.

 

They reprogrammed his/her mind, they took away his/her personality and replaced it with one more suitable to their own plans. I cannot think of anything more invasive and insolent. As Jediphile has said, the Council psychologically raped Revan.

 

It's not like they didn't have the choice of letting Revan return to his/her original state of mind you know. Of course, there could have been danger in that, but it was only a possibility and not a certainty. Besides, the Council didn

Edited February 16, 2007 by The Architect

[Rycal]

Well now that I've read all this. Most people here (with the exception of the Architect who has a valid point) seem to be missing a valid point:

Query: Why did the Council wipe Revan's Mind?

Blatant Answer: Safety. How would you contain the Dark Lord of the Sith? (ooh Now I'm morphing into a HK unit )

 

I doubt many masters of the order could've stood against Revan. Take Darth Nihilus in comparison to Revan. Nihilus was a maggot compared to Revan in power. Yet Nihilus could probably himself take on a Master or Two of the Order. Though then it's a question if Nihilus and Revan could be truly compared due to that Nihilus was a wound in the force like the Exile and had a different set of power than Revan. oh well

 

In conclusion: I think the only way for the council to contain Revan was to wipe his mind. Revan was no fool, and I doubt neither the high council on Coruscant nor the Enclave at Dantooine could've held him in one grip for a very long time. We should also remember that Revan was pretty charismatic, even in his role as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Though I must also say: Now we have to ponder over Kreia's words: Did Revan truly fall? Or did he do what was necissary to prepare the republic?

[Guest The Architect]

Blatant Answer: Safety. How would you contain the Dark Lord of the Sith? (ooh Now I'm morphing into a HK unit )

 

Easy. By not training Revan. What could a Revan without a lightsaber/s and force powers do to the Jedi Council, or any Jedi Knight?

 

I doubt many masters of the order could've stood against Revan.

 

One on one, perhaps not. But if you had Atris, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, Dorak, Zhar, Vandar and Vash all against Revan at once, there's no way in hell Revan would win. Yes, Revan is powerful, but VERY OVERHYPED!

 

Take Darth Nihilus in comparison to Revan. Nihilus was a maggot compared to Revan in power. Yet Nihilus could probably himself take on a Master or Two of the Order. Though then it's a question if Nihilus and Revan could be truly compared due to that Nihilus was a wound in the force like the Exile and had a different set of power than Revan.

 

 

A master or two? Nihilus wiped out a whole planet of Jedi, including several masters. I will not get into this whole annoying debate again, but to put simply, given Nihilus' void in the force, planet eating, inhuman, no will of his own status, only the Exile, a wound in the force, could beat Nihilus. NO ONE ELSE could. And no, it does not mean that the Exile is more powerful than Revan.

 

Though I must also say: Now we have to ponder over Kreia's words: Did Revan truly fall? Or did he do what was necissary to prepare the republic?

 

Prepare the Republic by attacking them and weakening them? I don't think so. Revan may have started out with 'good intentions', but it is folly to argue that Revan never 'truly' fell.

Edited February 16, 2007 by The Architect

[Wolfmann]

 

 

 

By the way, just curious, are you one of those fools who believe that the plot in KotOR III should be based off the canon Revan and the canon Exile?

 

Do you also bring a flame thrower to a discussion? For purposes of game play, I think Revan and the Exile can be whatever they were when you played the game previously. For canon, however, it should stay consistent.

 

 

And youse can argue all you want, but what the Council did to Revan was WRONG and was a CRIME. Read my previous post in this thread to see why.

 

Opinions. Everyone has one.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Wolfmann

[Wolfmann]

Now, what the Council did to Revan certainly was a crime! There is no justification for what they did. None. The ends do not justify the means.

 

I don't see it as a crime. Maybe unethical. Even morally objectionable. But not criminal in nature.

 

Is it okay (reprogramming Revan

[SilentScope001]

SilentScope001, note that I'm not of the opinion that Revan sacrificed himself/herself to the dark side to save the Republic. I agree with everything you said, and believe that if it turns out that Revan was trying to save the Republic via creating a Sith Empire and starting a Jedi Civil War war of conversion, then he/she was an IDIOT.

I think it is implied that is what Revan is going to do, so, yeah, Revan can be seen as an idiot. Of course, it might be the only way to kill off the True Sith, so we can't blame Revan.

 

Now, I never said that self-defense was immoral. Self-defense is not an immoral act; it is different from murder, as you know.

 

Course not. Because how can you defend yourself other than the annihliaton of the attacker. It's murder, and murder is wrong. It's wrong to murder an innocent person, as you say, so it is wrong to murder a guilty person as well. They are people after all. You cannot do self-defense, becuase it means you have to harm someone else.

 

To me, what the Jedi Council did was WRONG. The Jedi Council evidently didn't trust Revan to know who he/she was, and even if you play Revan as a goody goody on his/her way to LS mastery, by the time you reach Dantooine, they still don't tell him/her the truth.

Neither would I. Would you trust a Jedi Knight who disobeyed you and then later declared a Sith Empire? Heh, would you trust ANY Sith? Nope.

 

If Revan was redeemed, then it was his/her accomplishment and certainly not the Council's. They only saw him/her as a pawn to be played in their game of tactics against spandex man Malak, and that's exactly how they used Revan too.

 

Of course. I agree. But would Revan be "redeemed" on his own course had Bastila not captured Revan? Nope, Revan would take over the Republic and form that stupid SIth Empire. Only by getting rid of Revan's memories can Revan get the chance to turn away from his path and turn to the Light Side. He had the chance, and the player decides to take that chance...or to return to the past.

 

It was a Strageic "Redempetion", and therefore, an act of war.

 

They reprogrammed his/her mind, they took away his/her personality and replaced it with one more suitable to their own plans. I cannot think of anything more invasive and insolent. As Jediphile has said, the Council psychologically raped Revan.

Of course! But it was all for redemeption!

 

"You don't understand. The goal of the Jedi is to REDEEM. We do not kill our prisonsers, we want to redeem them! Redemeption is key!"

 

The Jedi has to redeem, and not to kill. That's part of their code. How they redeem, you can say that is wrong. But they follow the Code of Redemeption, taking it to extreme conclusions...It was an act of mercy, an crime, and an act of war...all at once. ("Mercy genocide"?)

 

Kreia hates redemeption. It is a "betrayal of the self". Revan was forced to betray who he has, to destory his own empire. Kreia does not CARE if Revan was truly redeemed, Kreia hates it anyway, because Revan was forced to turn against who he really was.

 

They didn't even trust the new personality they compulsorily rewrote Revan with, which of course gives Revan absolutely no reason for showing trust or dependence on the Jedi Masters once he/she finds out the truth.

 

Neither would I. The Force has a will, and its will is divided into the Light Will and the Dark Will. The Will of the Force can very well turn Revan to the DS, and I would know it. I would want to prevent that Dark Side of the Will from reasserting itself.

===

Oh, and why they kept Revan alive? He is the only one, other than Malak, that knew WHERE the Star Maps are. The Jedi knew about the Star Maps, but did not know where exactly they are. They also knew Revan would recover his memories, so they wiped his memory and waited for it to heal. Revan would then know where the Star Maps are, but not know why he knows. So, Revan would lead the Jedi Masters to the Star Maps, and finally to the Star Forge. By the time Revan would recover all his memory, the Star Forge would be wiped out.

Edited February 16, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Darth Mortis]

The Jedi has to redeem, and not to kill. That's part of their code. How they redeem, you can say that is wrong. But they follow the Code of Redemeption, taking it to extreme conclusions...It was an act of mercy, an crime, and an act of war...all at once. ("Mercy genocide"?)

 

A forced 'Redemption' is no redemtion at all, the same way that a forced appology is not a real appology. For Redemption to have any real meaning it has to be a concious decision taken by the person or persons involved. Just as being forced to appoligise to someone doesn't mean that you are really sorry for your actions.

 

Revan didn't have any real choice to redeem himself since the council made him someone they could use, a tool, a weapon against the Sith. While I can understand the urgency and the reasons why they felt they had to do what they did, the council can't-or maybe shouldn't-attempt to justify themselves by saying they were attempting to redeem Revan.

 

In this context the Jedi Councils explination/excuse that they were 'redeeming' Revan through their actions comes across as a blaitant attempt to justify an action they must have known was morally wrong. If Revan could be seen to be redeemed that would (Going with the cannon LS Revan) be when he continued to fight the Sith after finding out who he had been. Which of course the Jedi council had nothing to do with at all as it was Malak who revealed the truth.

[Wolfmann]

Easy. By not training Revan. What could a Revan without a lightsaber/s and force powers do to the Jedi Council, or any Jedi Knight?

 

No decision is easy.

 

By not training Revan, they risk losing the initiative, and they risk losing the advantage of their opportunity.

 

Nothing risked, nothing gained. The Jedi Council knew that in Revan's Redemption, their own redemption was possible, and morally or ethically wrong, it was necessary for the survival of their Order, and the safety of the Galaxy (even if there was another larger threat looming).

 

One on one, perhaps not. But if you had Atris, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, Dorak, Zhar, Vandar and Vash all against Revan at once, there's no way in hell Revan would win. Yes, Revan is powerful, but VERY OVERHYPED!

Have ever tried to fight more than one person? It's difficult for more than 2 or 3 people to attack you at once. If they were smart, they would simply wear him down, and punish him with force powers. But Revan is as strong in the Force as he was physically skilled.

 

I do agree Revan would probably be struck down, eventually. That simply is the reality. Even the strongest Jedi Masters, such as Mace Windu were proven to be defeatable. Geonosis proved that Jedi and Jedi Masters were quite vulnerable.

 

 

A master or two? Nihilus wiped out a whole planet of Jedi, including several masters. I will not get into this whole annoying debate again, but to put simply, given Nihilus' void in the force, planet eating, inhuman, no will of his own status, only the Exile, a wound in the force, could beat Nihilus. NO ONE ELSE could. And no, it does not mean that the Exile is more powerful than Revan.

 

Nihilus is an odd character. As much of an aberration as fighting a Ghost. Which is effectively what he is. I do agree the Exile is probably sufficiently disconnected from the Force to be able to stand against him. I doubt Revan would've, as it seems the more powerful you are, the more Nihilus takes from you.

 

It's an odd fact that originally Obsidian and even Lucasarts described Nihilus mask as being made from Revan's skull, but they dropped that to leave the plotline open.

 

I could believe it. Which is why it bothers me that in KOTOR 2 Nihilus is so powerful, is such a compelling character, that he doesn't have a more significant or prominent role. Just really kind of reveals the disservice Lucas Arts did with this game to push it's development cycle so quickly.

 

Prepare the Republic by attacking them and weakening them? I don't think so. Revan may have started out with 'good intentions', but it is folly to argue that Revan never 'truly' fell.

 

Revan had his reasons, and I do not necessarily buy the "Become a Sith Lord to fight the Sith Empire and Save the Galaxy".

 

There's a hole in the history there that needs to be filled.