Minite-man border fence

[alanschu]

And we were doing so well in not doing Eddo's homework for him

[Calax]

look... if you pulled SS out from under the illegals but allowed them to do basic jobs (you ain't exactly going to go out and help your farmer friend harvest his crops are you? in the middle of SUMMER!?) we'd probably have a much better time putting up with them.

 

 

(on a side note, I probably have worked with at least a half dozen in the past year.)

 

 

Another thing to think about, If you drop the illegals McDonalds and every other job of similar style (work your butt off for minimum wage and no benefits) would pretty much die a horrible death beacuse they didn't have enough workers to give you lunch.

[tarna]

I think that the US, Canada, and Mexico should have an open border and employment program. ... Taxes from such work go to the country of origin the business is in, and abide by the employment laws of the country.

...Economically it would be a great boon for all countries involved, in the long run, and we wouldn't have the hassles of who is illegal or not when it comes tot he work place.

You might want to consider changing your bong water.

 

Are you freaking high?!? I assume that you don't live in an area where your identity is being taken and used by illegals ( privately and nationally ). Call me a racist if you are so ( collectively ) stupid and cowardly but have your facts together before your get your testicles in an emotional uproar. If you ( collectively ) intend to do so, get your s**t together because we are gonna dance. Try living in an area of the US where you can't even order a freaking burger if your don't speak Espanol. We even have a 'construction dictionary' for those troublesome jobsites where you are stupid enough to assume that English isn't enough to communicate. The US has closed 80+ hospitals along the US/Mexico border because it cannot afford the 'economic boon' of 'Mexican workers' and while M13 and the Columbians are cruising in with Al Queda, you expect me to lick Mexico's backside and thank them for the cheap labor?

 

To all...before replying, don't forget that I work with lots of interesting people. DEA and Customs are only a few of the depts. that I work with.

[tarna]

And illegals don't pull from SS, so why should it matter that they don't put money into it?

Guess again.

 

Social Security for illegal aliens

I'm glad someone else posted this.

[tarna]

...Similarly, it is not in our best interest to enforce speeding laws aggressively. It's certainly not in law enforcement's best interests to do so, as it would cause everyone to slow down so much that their revenue streams would be significantly hampered. This is why (for example), San Diego police have yearly "traffic months" where they swat down speeders non-stop all day long along the 5, 805, 15, and 163 freeways. They let up after that month because everyone has slowed down; they no longer gain the revenue that they desire.

Which is more important? Cash or the health of a society through orderly and equitable rule of law?

[alanschu]

You could argue that a strong economy is highly correlated to the health of a society.

[Xard]

The fencing will be built with privately donated funds, engineering and lab or and will be used as an example to educate the public about the feasibility and efficacy of fencing to secure America

[Guard Dog]

I think that the US, Canada, and Mexico should have an open border and employment program. ... Taxes from such work go to the country of origin the business is in, and abide by the employment laws of the country.

...Economically it would be a great boon for all countries involved, in the long run, and we wouldn't have the hassles of who is illegal or not when it comes tot he work place.

You might want to consider changing your bong water.

 

Are you freaking high?!? I assume that you don't live in an area where your identity is being taken and used by illegals ( privately and nationally ). Call me a racist if you are so ( collectively ) stupid and cowardly but have your facts together before your get your testicles in an emotional uproar. If you ( collectively ) intend to do so, get your s**t together because we are gonna dance. Try living in an area of the US where you can't even order a freaking burger if your don't speak Espanol. We even have a 'construction dictionary' for those troublesome jobsites where you are stupid enough to assume that English isn't enough to communicate. The US has closed 80+ hospitals along the US/Mexico border because it cannot afford the 'economic boon' of 'Mexican workers' and while M13 and the Columbians are cruising in with Al Queda, you expect me to lick Mexico's backside and thank them for the cheap labor?

 

To all...before replying, don't forget that I work with lots of interesting people. DEA and Customs are only a few of the depts. that I work with.

No joke there. I work in South Florida and one of the requirements for promotion to department head or ANY managerial position around here (in my company at least) is the ability to speak, read and write Spanish. And I'm an RF engineer with a major wireless carrier. This is not just a rule at Burger King. At the Miami Dade Courthouse, the signs are almost ALL in Spanish with English in the small text. Miami has two major spanish newspapers, only one english paper (but I would not even wrap a fish in it). Plus before christmas, Bellsouth called me at home about my DSL service order and the lady began by addressing me in SPANISH! I know most of you take the knee jerk liberal reaction to everything around here (after all being liberal is easier than thinking for yourself) but you had all best read a little history about the fates of nation-states that lost control of their borders and their cultural identity.

[alanschu]

after all being liberal is easier than thinking for yourself

How quaint.

 

 

you had all best read a little history about the fates of nation-states that lost control of their borders and their cultural identity

 

Such a road would be undoubtedly easier to take if you could get the ball rolling. Give an example.

[Walsingham]

If you're going to have a border, make it work. The minuteman fence seems like good way of gettng people involved, and doing a lot of mointoring on the cheap. Neat-o. However, it rather ignores the reality of a fence, which is that it won't stop everyone, tunnels, and rocket boots being what they are.

 

 

On the subject of cheap labour, as a subject of realm that went trhough such arguments in the 1800s as part of the industrial revolution, and son of a country that had 'native' labour, I'm a little surprised. Worker's rights are a good thing. The absence of them merely encourages lazy management, work accidents, and most importantly cheapens and demeans the human condition.

 

Your nation will be perfectly fine without cheap pool boys and chamber maids. You might, gods forbid, have to learn to do these jobs yourselves.

[Guard Dog]

after all being liberal is easier than thinking for yourself

How quaint.

Ah, I shouldn't have said that. That what happens when I'm working all night on a Friday, I get grouchy.

 

 

 

you had all best read a little history about the fates of nation-states that lost control of their borders and their cultural identity

Such a road would be undoubtedly easier to take if you could get the ball rolling. Give an example.

 

The first one that jumps to mind is the Western Roman Empire. At it's zenith no matter where you went in the Roman Empire, the language of business was latin, and every citizen identified themselves as roman. At the end, in the west the provinces spoke their own languages and idetified themselves by their ethnicity. They did not think of themselves as roman citizens and did not owe any fealty to that institution. That is one of the biggest reasons for it's ultimate fall. Heck Alan, it's happening now in your own backyard. The people of Quebec identify themselves more as citizens of Quebec than Canada. The more absract the idea of Canada becomes to them, the closer they will move to cesession. It would be a disaster for both groups. And language is one of the biggest wedge issues right?

Edited February 3, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

Your nation will be perfectly fine without cheap pool boys and chamber maids. You might, gods forbid, have to learn to do these jobs yourselves.

AMEN!

[Gorgon]

Learning a second language is good for you, anyway, you might want to get a head start, in 50 years they will have outbred everyone, the first non-white male anglo saxon president is gonna be Latino, mark my words.

[Walsingham]

Thanks, my canine colleague. However, I'd take issue with any notion that the US is being watered down by hispanic influences. Surely the USA is a notion and institution based (in theory) on freedom and equality of men before the law, of welcoming the dispossessed and downtrodden. You don't 'lose' that by changing the language it's expressed in or the colour of the people who express it. In fact, in many ways you validate and embolden the notion.

 

bit hokey and obvious, but it needs to be said.

[alanschu]

Your nation will be perfectly fine without cheap pool boys and chamber maids. You might, gods forbid, have to learn to do these jobs yourselves.

 

 

I think one issue though, is that many people don't want to do those jobs. Alberta is suffering from a "labour shortage," which also has the unfortunate side effect that people would rather hold out for an opening for a $20/hr job, than take the $12/hr job working at 7-11. It's gotten pretty crazy, that places like 7-11 are offering a $700 bonus simply for taking the job.

 

Most of our fast food restaurants only have their drive through window open now.

Edited February 3, 2007 by alanschu

[Guard Dog]

Thanks, my canine colleague. However, I'd take issue with any notion that the US is being watered down by hispanic influences. Surely the USA is a notion and institution based (in theory) on freedom and equality of men before the law, of welcoming the dispossessed and downtrodden. You don't 'lose' that by changing the language it's expressed in or the colour of the people who express it. In fact, in many ways you validate and embolden the notion.

 

bit hokey and obvious, but it needs to be said.

No it is not watered down at all and these areas where the native language is becoming something othere than the majority of the country are few and isolated. Right now it is small acorns but as you Brits say, "mighty oaks grow from small acorns". It will become a problem one day, just as it has become in Quebec. Better to address it now.

[Walsingham]

Alan, I'm a surprised to find a sensible chap like you aggrieved by the notion that a simple non-essential business like fast food restaurants might fold. If the demand is sufficient for fast food I have no doubt that our species will satisfy the demand somehow. This is rather the point. Jobs done by under-aid and under-privileged people are (in my opinion) either

 

1. Done better and more efficiently by better paid better trained people

2. Done better by machines

3. Better not done at all, or by those who want them

 

Guard Dog, as a Britisher I am not so inured to complainst about multi-culturalism. But equally as an Englishman I know it cannot be avoided by any open-minded country. It buries the old, but new growth is stimulated that is more vigorous. I appreciate that as a ppolitician you will not get any votes by saying this, and as a solider you may place an unusally high value on cohesion and common culture for strength, but what do you propose doing about it?

[alanschu]

after all being liberal is easier than thinking for yourself

How quaint.

Ah, I shouldn't have said that. That what happens when I'm working all night on a Friday, I get grouchy.

 

 

 

you had all best read a little history about the fates of nation-states that lost control of their borders and their cultural identity

Such a road would be undoubtedly easier to take if you could get the ball rolling. Give an example.

 

The first one that jumps to mind is the Western Roman Empire. At it's zenith no matter where you went in the Roman Empire, the language of business was latin, and every citizen identified themselves as roman. At the end, in the west the provinces spoke their own languages and idetified themselves by their ethnicity. They did not think of themselves as roman citizens and did not owe any fealty to that institution. That is one of the biggest reasons for it's ultimate fall.

 

So even the Gauls, Britons and Numidians identified themselves as Roman?

 

Heck Alan, it's happening now in your own backyard. The people of Quebec identify themselves more as citizens of Quebec than Canada. The more absract the idea of Canada becomes to them, the closer they will move to cesession. It would be a disaster for both groups. And language is one of the biggest wedge issues right?

 

 

At the same time, in both referendums the people of Quebec voted to stay in Canada. I'm not really convinced that Quebecers really want to separate, but rather they see threats of separation as being an effective way of getting what they want from the Federal Government.

Edited February 3, 2007 by alanschu

[Pidesco]

you had all best read a little history about the fates of nation-states that lost control of their borders and their cultural identity

Such a road would be undoubtedly easier to take if you could get the ball rolling. Give an example.

The first one that jumps to mind is the Western Roman Empire. At it's zenith no matter where you went in the Roman Empire, the language of business was Latin, and every citizen identified themselves as roman. At the end, in the west the provinces spoke their own languages and identified themselves by their ethnicity. They did not think of themselves as roman citizens and did not owe any fealty to that institution. That is one of the biggest reasons for it's ultimate fall. Heck Alan, it's happening now in your own backyard. The people of Quebec identify themselves more as citizens of Quebec than Canada. The more abstract the idea of Canada becomes to them, the closer they will move to secession. It would be a disaster for both groups. And language is one of the biggest wedge issues right?

 

 

The key word here is "citizen". Only a very small minority of Roman population were citizens. Also, Roman culture was mainly city based. Outside cities the only Romans you could find were small families living in villas.

[alanschu]

Alan, I'm a surprised to find a sensible chap like you aggrieved by the notion that a simple non-essential business like fast food restaurants might fold.

 

I'm not. It was just an observation. The economics of it are still in order though. There is such diminishing returns on increased sales that staffing more people is not economically viable.

 

 

If the demand is sufficient for fast food I have no doubt that our species will satisfy the demand somehow. This is rather the point. Jobs done by under-aid and under-privileged people are (in my opinion) either

 

1. Done better and more efficiently by better paid better trained people

2. Done better by machines

3. Better not done at all, or by those who want them

 

 

 

1. I'm not sure. Unskilled labour is called unskilled labour for a reason. Is stacking shelves in a grocery store done better and more efficiently by better paid and better trained people?

 

2. I am very open to the idea of machines taking on tasks. I know some people are scared of them because they can replace jobs, but I'm of the mind that if they replace a menial job, it will create a new job. I guess a concern is whether or not you still have the same pool of unskilled labour. It's a straight forward job stacking shelves. Repairing and maintaining the robot that stacks them is a bit less trivial. I wonder what would happen in the world if tomorrow every menial task was automated. No more gas jockey, no more stockboy, no more cashiers. I can understand that life can be cruel, and if you're not motivated and unable to adapt to this change, the world is going to leave you behind. However, the loss of jobs will adversely affect government coffers. Even if the State does not have any welfare support programs, they'll still suffer from less tax income.

 

3. Is it better to not have people doing garbage collection and taking it out of town to the local landfill? I understand that, especially in the example of fast food that I used earlier, it's not really a great loss if some businesses are no longer able to operate. But some stuff has to be done. Unfortunately, we're not at the stage where automatic garbage removal is economically viable. In Edmonton, the cost of Snow Removal for the city has shot up, because people that typically performed those jobs made so much more money in the energy sector. The only way to make it enticing was to throw more money at the people, which has a negative effect on public coffers. You could put this responsibility purely into the hands of business and home owners, but then you get into the Tragedy of the Commons. You'll only get people taking care of the small part of road in front of themselves, and that's only if they feel it's necessary. The guy with the 4x4 SUV is less affected (and has less vested interest in clearing his part of the road) than the guy driving the Honda 3-Door Civic.

 

 

Since I mentioned cashiers, an interesting aside is that with the labour shortage, many large stores such as Walmart have gone to automated cashiers, where people ring in their own purchases. A neat idea and not one I am against. It may result in increased shoplifting, but it's probably easier to swallow if you're not paying for the labour of the cashier.

[Guard Dog]

Guard Dog, as a Britisher I am not so inured to complainst about multi-culturalism. But equally as an Englishman I know it cannot be avoided by any open-minded country. It buries the old, but new growth is stimulated that is more vigorous. I appreciate that as a ppolitician you will not get any votes by saying this, and as a solider you may place an unusally high value on cohesion and common culture for strength, but what do you propose doing about it?

Little and less can be done about it unfortunately. What we are doing wrong as a nation is catering too much to those who refuse to assimilate. Like offering free bilingual education (taxpayer funded of course), having multilingual street signs. Like speaking a foreign language in court. Heck the voters ballot in California comes in 47 different languages! 47!!! If someone wants to have a say in the governance of the country at least they should lean the language. If we put an end to this stupidity and made English the official and ONLY language for official business and government commerce (the local drugstore in Miami can still speak Spanish only in their store if they want) then people who want to work and live here WILL learn it. And that is the first step to assimilating into a single national identity. The US has a culture all of it's own and it is a blend of the cultures of everyone who lives here, and it is only detrimental to have a segment of the society who refuses to embrace it. Heck I was stationed in Japan for just a year and was only actually there six months and I did my best to learn as much Japanese as I could. It is beyond rude to approach someone in a foreign country and address them in a language they probably do not speak. That is what angers me so much about the illegal immigration issue. They come here illegally then demand that I ignore the fact they have broken the law, then spend my tax dollars to offer social services in THEIR language because they refuse to learn mine.

 

If I were in office I would sponsor a bill to make English the official language then drop the bilingual aids. But it would die in comittee. No one would vote for it, it is too hot an issue. I have no problem with a guest worker program so long as it is well regulated. And any one who wishes to legally immigrate will ALWAYS be welcomed.

[alanschu]

And any one who wishes to legally immigrate will ALWAYS be welcomed.

 

Wouldn't you still run the risk of legal immigrants imposing their culture and language on your country?

Edited February 3, 2007 by alanschu

[Guard Dog]

Wouldn't you still run the risk of legal immigrants imposing their culture and language on your country?

By making it unnecassary to learn the language here we are already encouraging them to do so. Like I said, if you made it impossible to get by in this country without leaning the language, those who want to come here will learn it.

[alanschu]

Wouldn't you still run the risk of legal immigrants imposing their culture and language on your country?

By making it unnecassary to learn the language here we are already encouraging them to do so. Like I said, if you made it impossible to get by in this country without leaning the language, those who want to come here will learn it.

 

I wasn't asking about whether or not it's encouraged to do so through illegal aliens.

 

 

You say you'll always welcome legal immigrants. Wouldn't this still subject the United States to the dissolution of your culture and language? It wouldn't necessarily be as fast, but one of your big concerns about the illegal immigrant situation is preservation of culture. This does not go away with legal immigration. Even if you make them learn the language. Put a few thousand Mexicans in the same part of town, even if they knew English coming in, and there's no guarantee that they aren't going to start speaking more Mexican.

Edited February 3, 2007 by alanschu

[Guard Dog]

Wouldn't you still run the risk of legal immigrants imposing their culture and language on your country?

By making it unnecassary to learn the language here we are already encouraging them to do so. Like I said, if you made it impossible to get by in this country without leaning the language, those who want to come here will learn it.

 

I wasn't asking about whether or not it's encouraged to do so through illegal aliens.

 

 

You say you'll always welcome legal immigrants. Wouldn't this still subject the United States to the dissolution of your culture and language? It wouldn't necessarily be as fast, but one of your big concerns about the illegal immigrant situation is preservation of culture. This does not go away with legal immigration. Even if you make them learn the language. Put a few thousand Mexicans in the same part of town, even if they knew English coming in, and there's no guarantee that they aren't going to start speaking more Mexican.

I have no issue with spanish being the predominant language where spanish is the predominant ethnicity. What people do on their own is their business. But if you walk into city hall, do not expect to see spanish signs, or have government business conducted in spanish just to suit you. Adapt to your enviorment, don't force your enviorment to adapt to you. And for God's sweet sake do not expect to have the state print it's ballots in 47 different languages just because you refuse to learn the language of the land. I'm white and of northern eurpoean descent and if someone comes up to me and starts speaking spanish to me in the street of a US city I'd tell them to pike off. And I speak spanish very well. If they try to speak to me in english I will go out of my way to help them. I learned that in Japan.

 

The US culture is always changing BECAUSE of legal immigration and that's fine. To legally immigrate you need to learn a little about this country