I don't get Christianity because.

[Dark Moth]

That I disagree with. It just seems unlikely to me that a deity would just create humanity and forget about it. But that's just my humble Christian opinion.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Gromnir]

"someone who believes in God but doesn't believe that God pays any attention to the world. That he made it and left it to see what it would do... something like that."

 

were the quote you responded to. whether you believe or not, the pantheist notions o' Spinoza seems to come pretty darn close to the mark of what were quoted.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

Not knowing who Martin Luther is is not exactly inspiring of confidence.

 

Also, whats with the posting of dictionary/wiki definitions as if they were arguments in themselves.

 

 

You specifically typed Martin Luter, not Martin Luther. And I was able to find references to people named Martin Luter.

 

 

It doesn't change the fact that it's an appeal to authority. Not surprisingly, there are people out there that aren't all that big on religion, so they'll twist words around to make a point. Martin Luther would fit that bill quite appropriately, especially seeing as he was excommunicated for his work.

 

You see this type of appeal to authority used ALL THE TIME. People will use an anecdote to make a point, and then say that Einstein said it because Einstein is a smart person and very introspective.

 

I use the definition of the word from a dictionary because, it's the definition of the word. Posting a dictionary/wiki definition is just as useful (if not more useful) than posting what some person said about it years ago.

 

 

My not understanding that you meant Martin Luther may not inspire confidence, but the fact that you used his quote as some sort of justification of your warped perception of the term faith doesn't do so either.

[Ravenskya]

That I disagree with. It just seems unlikely to me that a deity would just create humanity and forget about it. But that's just my humble Christian opinion.

 

That's my Dad's take on the world, not mine. But apparently Ben Franklin and a few others thought the same way. It's got a name, I just don't know what it is. The thinking is that God created the world and now he sits back and watches like and experiment, and one day he will be done with it and the end will come.

 

I don't believe it, but my Dad had to suffer through Catholic school where he was beaten by nuns and such, so the fact that he believes in God at all makes me feel a little better.

[Gromnir]

That I disagree with. It just seems unlikely to me that a deity would just create humanity and forget about it. But that's just my humble Christian opinion.

 

That's my Dad's take on the world, not mine. But apparently Ben Franklin and a few others thought the same way. It's got a name, I just don't know what it is. The thinking is that God created the world and now he sits back and watches like and experiment, and one day he will be done with it and the end will come.

 

I don't believe it, but my Dad had to suffer through Catholic school where he was beaten by nuns and such, so the fact that he believes in God at all makes me feel a little better.

 

that is deism in a nutshell... the old clockmaker hypothesis.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I don't think you really even understand the concept.

 

We are chickens with our heads cut off. I do not ignore religion, very much the opposite. I think about religion everyday. I denounce it with putrid hatred. It is very hard for me to be civil about theology. What you said is one of the things I hate the most about religion. It is a cop-out when you* are backed in a corner. When someone provides evidence against your god you respond with the weathered expression, "It is all according to god's will." I refuse to accept that as a rational explanation. Provide me with the tiniest piece of solid evidence then I will give it some consideration. There is no way to back religion other than with unfounded ideology.

[Ravenskya]

Provide me with the tiniest piece of solid evidence then I will give it some consideration.

 

The human eye

 

 

Though I agree... most people don't have a clue how to discuss religion other than to say "Cuz that's what God Wants" or "You just gotta believe"

[Dark Moth]

That I disagree with. It just seems unlikely to me that a deity would just create humanity and forget about it. But that's just my humble Christian opinion.

 

That's my Dad's take on the world, not mine. But apparently Ben Franklin and a few others thought the same way. It's got a name, I just don't know what it is. The thinking is that God created the world and now he sits back and watches like and experiment, and one day he will be done with it and the end will come.

 

I don't believe it, but my Dad had to suffer through Catholic school where he was beaten by nuns and such, so the fact that he believes in God at all makes me feel a little better.

Actually I was referring to Grom's quote. I believe also the term you're looking for is deism, as I said in this below post (which you might have missed).

 

*snip*

My father was raised Catholic and is now .... hmmm what's the word for it... someone who believes in God but doesn't believe that God pays any attention to the world. That he made it and left it to see what it would do... something like that.

*snip*

A deist, maybe?

 

Other than that...wow. Very deep and at the same time touching. Very true, too. Props to ya.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Provide me with the tiniest piece of solid evidence then I will give it some consideration.

 

The human eye

 

Is deeply flawed in many ways... "

[Deadly_Nightshade]

It focuses not only one helping oneself but on helping others. It's lessons are timeless and can even be used today. I personally find it one of the most personal and rewarding faiths out there.

 

I try not to laugh at those whose beliefs are for the common good, but I don't wish to follow them. That's not the type of person I am. I will commonly joke, but know that it is not a direct insult, only sarcasm in its edgier sense. My belief, is that there is no God. Simple, as clear as crystal and as plain as paper. No God at all. Just a concoction created by the Human Mind. There was never a Zeus, never a Hades, never a Krishna, never a Yahweh, never an Allah, never a God. Never. I stand firm by my statement, as does my colleagues, whether on opposing sides of the debate or not. Arguing isn't going to solve anything, it just makes things worse, especially once you target your challenge, you've clearly lost the debate.

 

There is no clear cut evidence of his existence. Books and scripture is NOT evidence, it is appraisal to his seeming existence, but I stress, NOT evidence. Books are written by man, man can LIE, or make fairy tales, its what man was good at for several millenia anyway, and still are to this very day. No tangible proof, no evidence, nothing. I will not commit my time to a Lord who very well might not exist, because it wastes my time. I believe in Humans, and creatures, and though humans may be flawed and malcontent at times, I believe we are the very thing we have created.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

N0TE:

 

I believe I am more tolerant of what other people believe than many Christians. I have never seen people picketing atheism but I see it all the time with religion. I have never seen someone walking up to strangers trying to give them copies of "The Origin of Species" saying this is the way. Yet, I can't walk across campus without seeing someone preaching about Jesus dying for sins or some guy walking up to me trying to give me a bible. It is belief not fact. I see tolerance out the *** from atheists. I do not see it as much from the religious. Beliefs in a god or lack of should not be a defining characteristic for government offices. In fact the religious politicians are even more immoral and dishonest than atheist politicians. Because they are dishonest not only to the people but themselves and they go against there own moral beliefs. Are you trying to say that people that are not religious are evil? Some of the cruelest acts of man have been undertaken under the name of religion. People will defend their beliefs with unceasing cruelty and evil. Nothing is scarier than 80% of the US population turning on the other 20% simply because of religious beliefs. It is unfair and it is unjust. Laws such as these are a way to separate people even more. I do not agree with everything in that video. I think it is just as dangerous as any other religious propaganda. It inspires hate and does nothing to resolve the issue. However, it does show another side of religion and government, one that should be resolved.

[theslug]

If theres one thing worse than fundamentalist Christians or terrorists its gotta be fundamentalist atheists or super herpies.

[Dark Moth]

I don't think you really even understand the concept.

 

We are chickens with our heads cut off. I do not ignore religion, very much the opposite. I think about religion everyday. I denounce it with putrid hatred. It is very hard for me to be civil about theology. What you said is one of the things I hate the most about religion. It is a cop-out when you* are backed in a corner. When someone provides evidence against your god you respond with the weathered expression, "It is all according to god's will." I refuse to accept that as a rational explanation. Provide me with the tiniest piece of solid evidence then I will give it some consideration. There is no way to back religion other than with unfounded ideology.

I'm not sure you even know what I was talking about. " I was referring to the crucifixion concept, not religion in general. Also, I have never been backed into a corner, so please don't try to make it sound like i was. Also, given your statement already, I'm going to say this: be civil about discussing it, or we simply won't discuss at all. I really can't take time out for people who can't even be civil. And please don't put words into my mouth, since that's obviously what you are doing.

 

Also, you want evidence, here's a question: Where did energy come from? It can't be created, or destroyed. How did it get here? Same goes for matter. Where did matter come from? And don't say 'the big bang'. Where did the matter before the big bang come from? You can't have something from nothing, so where did it come from?

 

N0TE:

 

I believe I am more tolerant of what other people believe than many Christians. I have never seen people picketing atheism but I see it all the time with religion. I have never seen someone walking up to strangers trying to give them copies of "The Origin of Species" saying this is the way. Yet, I can't walk across campus without seeing someone preaching about Jesus dying for sins or some guy walking up to me trying to give me a bible. It is belief not fact. I see tolerance out the *** from atheists. I do not see it as much from the religious. Beliefs in a god or lack of should not be a defining characteristic for government offices. In fact the religious politicians are even more immoral and dishonest than atheist politicians. Because they are dishonest not only to the people but themselves and they go against there own moral beliefs. Are you trying to say that people that are not religious are evil? Some of the cruelest acts of man have been undertaken under the name of religion. People will defend their beliefs with unceasing cruelty and evil. Nothing is scarier than 80% of the US population turning on the other 20% simply because of religious beliefs. It is unfair and it is unjust. Laws such as these are a way to separate people even more. I do not agree with everything in that video. I think it is just as dangerous as any other religious propaganda. It inspires hate and does nothing to resolve the issue. However, it does show another side of religion and government, one that should be resolved.

Here, for you. Clicky!

 

http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_rea...date=2006-11-21

 

Also, no offense, but it's clear you've got some personal gripe against religion, and most of what you're spouting is BS and your own unfounded opinion. You've already stereotyped an entire group and call yourself tolerant. Also, what video?

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[theslug]

Watch out everyone!! Deadly nightshade is on a internet tirade! OMG

 

And if you are stupid enough (yes stupid because it's blatantly stupid) to believe that religion preaches hate well then you are stupid. Sup lolz/ It's people who preach hate not scripture that says turn the other cheek you arrogant sob.

[Dark Moth]

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Ravenskya]

Fundamentalists of any type are terrifying. And yes... terrible things have happened in the name of religion... it's easy to get simple sheeplike people wound up and furious over their beliefs... whatever they are. Trust me, I live in Tennessee... the self proclaimed "Buckle of the Bible Belt" I know all about the crazies trying to convert you on the street corner, men dragging crosses around the mall dressed like Jesus, people standing on boxes screaming about how we're all going to hell. Even the radio stations here are insane.

 

But that is not the flaw of any religion. No where in the Koran does it say "Thou shall strap bombs unto thineself and blow up the little children to tiny bits, so sayeth Allah" The main flaw in religion (any religion) is it's followers.

 

But I also know that no opinion has ever been changed by the internet. Millions of arguments have been had over every topic under the sun.... but all the internet will ever truly do is concrete ideas that you already at least partially believe in.

[Ravenskya]

It's people who preach hate not scripture that says turn the other cheek you arrogant sob.

 

Actually that is not a good example... because (although I hate to look like I'm switching sides) previously in the same book they state "Eye for an eye" which does sort of elude to vengeance...

[Dark Moth]

Fundamentalists of any type are terrifying. And yes... terrible things have happened in the name of religion... it's easy to get simple sheeplike people wound up and furious over their beliefs... whatever they are. Trust me, I live in Tennessee... the self proclaimed "Buckle of the Bible Belt" I know all about the crazies trying to convert you on the street corner, men dragging crosses around the mall dressed like Jesus, people standing on boxes screaming about how we're all going to hell. Even the radio stations here are insane.

 

But that is not the flaw of any religion. No where in the Koran does it say "Thou shall strap bombs unto thineself and blow up the little children to tiny bits, so sayeth Allah" The main flaw in religion (any religion) is it's followers.

 

But I also know that no opinion has ever been changed by the internet. Millions of arguments have been had over every topic under the sun.... but all the internet will ever truly do is concrete ideas that you already at least partially believe in.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Though atheists can be just as 'fundamental' as many religious folk, which is why it's unfair and untrue to say that the most heinous things have been done in the name of religion. Many of the worst acts in history have also been done without religion. You don't even have to look very far. Hitler, anyone? How about Nero? Maybe Stalin?

 

*Just a a note, Hitler did not target Jews as a religion, but as an ethnic group. He had no Christian motivation for what he did, it was all mostly out of his hatred and extreme sense of nationalism.

[Gromnir]

"There is no way to back religion other than with unfounded ideology."

 

the same is true of all the best things in life... like romantic love and honor and free will n' liberty. the reality o' romantic love is far less meaningful and important than is the simple choice to believe in romantic love. prove love to Gromnir. go ahead, we dare you. you can prove sexual attraction and need to procreate, but modern notions o' romantic love is different. old timey poets and toubadours maybe pulled a fast one on mankind, got us to believe that there were something pure and noble 'bout messy carnal desires? good for them.. good for Gromnir.

 

what you call delusion, others will call faith. maybe God is a delusion, but that really ain't all that important at the end of the day... 'least not from Gromnir's perspective. is Gromnir a better person and is Gromnir's life better because of his belief and faith in love or liberty? probably. so why should belief in God be any different?

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ravenskya]

*huggles Gromy for being a better person at the end of the day*

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Where did energy come from? It can't be created, or destroyed. How did it get here? Same goes for matter. Where did matter come from? And don't say 'the big bang'. Where did the matter before the big bang come from? You can't have something from nothing, so where did it come from?

 

Here's the thing. Those who seek to dilute the teaching of science with religion should first give up the fruits of that teaching. With enough faith in God, religious people should have no need for sinful technologies - antibiotics, gene therapy, insulin, microwave ovens, etc. Is it not an affront to God to forsake His Love for the fruits of Godless science?

 

Also, what video?

 

Simply a mistake, I'll edit it out sometime...

Edited February 2, 2007 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Dark Moth]

"There is no way to back religion other than with unfounded ideology."

 

the same is true of all the best things in life... like romantic love and honor and free will n' liberty. the reality o' romantic love is far less meaningful and important than is the simple choice to believe in romantic love. prove love to Gromnir. go ahead, we dare you. you can prove sexual attraction and need to procreate, but modern notions o' romantic love is different. old timey poets and toubadours maybe pulled a fast one on mankind, got us to believe that there were something pure and noble 'bout messy carnal desires? good for them.. good for Gromnir.

 

what you call delusion, others will call faith. maybe God is a delusion, but that really ain't all that important at the end of the day... 'least not from Gromnir's perspective. is Gromnir a better person and is Gromnir's life better because of his belief and faith in love or liberty? probably. so why should belief in God be any different?

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

I think you've summed it up perfectly.

[Dark Moth]

Where did energy come from? It can't be created, or destroyed. How did it get here? Same goes for matter. Where did matter come from? And don't say 'the big bang'. Where did the matter before the big bang come from? You can't have something from nothing, so where did it come from?

 

Here's the thing. Those who seek to dilute the teaching of science with religion should first give up the fruits of that teaching. With enough faith in God, religious people should have no need for sinful technologies - antibiotics, gene therapy, insulin, microwave ovens, etc. Is it not an affront to God to forsake His Love for the fruits of Godless science?

You didn't answer the question. Answer it, or don't answer at all.

 

Also, what you've said is simply untrue, and it seems you really don't know what you're talking about. You're speaking as if every religious person is an lunatic nutjob. And I personally find it appalling that you're spouting off such unjustified nonsense. When you say things like that, I take it as a direct insult, because you're stereotyping me as well. Please, either be civil about this, or keep your mouth shut.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Also, no offense, but it's clear you've got some personal gripe against religion, and most of what you're spouting is BS and your own unfounded opinion. You've already stereotyped an entire group and call yourself tolerant.

 

Even the most tolerant people snap if enough pressure is applied, and my day provided that pressure. Also, how are your belifes any more well founded than my own?

[Ravenskya]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say to turn away from science, why not embrace and try to understand the wonders of the world around us. God created an intricate world for us to live in, ever changing and evolving it is not a sin to wonder in his creation or to find new ways to use what he has provided for us.

 

But... this is a futile argument... I will now go tend to my post-surgery hubby who needs more icey thingys in his knee brace. Try not to kill each other... and remember that in the end this will not change anyone's minds.

 

Love ya