The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[alanschu]

Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well.

 

The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy.

 

I know just what that's like.

 

I had a simple bug and gave an estimate of a week. Turns out it wasn't so simple, and 3 weeks later, I finally had it nicked. Those extra two weeks weren't exactly happy times (though my job is a very laid back atmosphere), but you feel sheepish when you give a time and you miss it by two whole weeks. On the plus side, my boss bleeds grant money, and he understands it's a learning experience for me, so he's not overly worked up about it.

 

I can only imagine what it'd be like when businesses and jobs are on the line

[Niten_Ryu]

I loved every single Troika game. Each one had some feature that was just perfect for me. In Arcanum it was world aspect that made me forget all about unbalanced rules and game mechanics, in ToEE it was turn based strategic combat system that made me forget boring world aspects and non-existant story and characters. Bloodlines was best out of all Troika games since it didn't have any big negative aspects for me (I have high tolerance for gameplay bugs). Heck, it even showed me that usually so emo gothic world can be interesting. Bravo !

 

But it's still easy to see why Troika failed. None of the games offered solid gameplay that everyone would have liked. In Arcanum you can feel balance issues befoe you leave crash site. If you don't love turn based action under strict rules, ToEE is rather empty game. Bloodlines combat system is too difficult for traditional role-players (oh noes, I have to aim) and too complex for FPS fans (why didn't I hit that opponent even thou my aim was perfect.. stupid rules). Yes, every game could have been developed differently to appeal much more broad consumer base, but there probably just wasn't enough time or skill to do the changes. Unless you get it right at the first time, or design different game or rule mechanics in early stages of development, you will run out of time... unfortunately.

 

My fav old skool developers seem to drop one by one out of the game biz. Who knows, maybe some can adjust to current situation and stupidly huge development budgets. Maybe some have learned that how things were done in past, can't be done today. ie Kenny Levine said that first you have to design fun and working base game mechanics before you can start buidling story and world. IMO that is the right way to do it. Hopefully Bioshock will deliver.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well.

 

The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy.

 

I know just what that's like.

 

I had a simple bug and gave an estimate of a week. Turns out it wasn't so simple, and 3 weeks later, I finally had it nicked. Those extra two weeks weren't exactly happy times (though my job is a very laid back atmosphere), but you feel sheepish when you give a time and you miss it by two whole weeks. On the plus side, my boss bleeds grant money, and he understands it's a learning experience for me, so he's not overly worked up about it.

 

I can only imagine what it'd be like when businesses and jobs are on the line

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perminant crunch like at Troika... Ya know to meet milestones.

 

Heck it took me 3 weeks to get the AI map working with a state machine

(project Gravitas)

(, because I needed to code for all the possible surface transitions, which involved graphing the objects AI maps... Oh it goes on, but I thought it'd take me about a week, but the general structuring did, then I had to wait for the required transitions to turn up, sometimes I sat there for an hour just waiting for the transition to happen... But ya know, so it the nature of making games, unpredicatable.

[Morgoth]

In short, software development is a non-linear, non-factory process that can't be 100% under control even with the most careful planning and skill/experience. Of course, ignorant entities like Volourn or Gromnir don't understand that, so they just will continue to justify their moronic opinions with proverbs like "It's all their fault! They are incompetent!!! They must die!!!". "

 

Edit: I for one am sad that Troika is gone. Maybe they didn'tr break new ground in design, had some glitches etc etc. But their games were cool and had soul (ToEE excluded. But that's what you get when a programmer leads a project).

Soul >> Perfection.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Morgoth

[Diogo Ribeiro]

the sith lords were comprable to toee?  maybe not best example.

 

Both were unfinished and released in that state regardless. That was as far as the comparison was meant to go. Temple of Elemental Evil was in a far worse state than The Sith Lords, yes. Although looking back at the majority of bugs, they were mostly data entry types, something that could probably have been fixed in perhaps a week (perhaps the very week it was released earlier? who knows).

[Volourn]

"Both were unfinished and released in that state regardless."

 

SL (and, even TOEE) were both finished. The idea that they weren't is silly.

[Lare Kikkeli]

"Both were unfinished and released in that state regardless."

 

SL (and, even TOEE) were both finished. The idea that they weren't is silly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

 

i hope no one takes the bait

[Girias_Solo]

Eh, Troika were in the wrong age.

 

I love their games to bits, but their time was in the past. Instead of interactive fiction where you fight and then watch a movie (like many RPG's today) they made games you could actually role play. Reading/No voice overs/choices killed them in this day and age of ritelin, much like Garriott et al. Back in the late 80's, early 90's they would have been numero uno in the CRPG world.

 

I know the majority do not like this, but as a pen and paper player, their games were the best I have played to date, bugs or no. Especially Arcanum. Damn I wish they had created a detailed TBC system like Fallout instead of the hackneyed half RT half TB that they did.

 

TOEE was a little weak though. Very stupid to agree to sign on for 1 and a half years for a CRPG of today. It takes at least 2 years to create a half decent, yet still buggy as crap, CRPG with todays bells and whistles. And this with a bigger team.

 

Thank god for Co8 and their work.

[Volourn]

"Instead of interactive fiction where you fight and then watch a movie (like many RPG's today) they made games you could actually role play."

 

Eh? Old skool CRPGs didn't know what role-playing was (Ultima excluded). They wer enothing more than glorifed dungeon hacks and were proud of it. If you want to put Troika in with that group; be my guest.

 

 

Lare: Roll your eyes all you want; the truth is the truth.

[Girias_Solo]

"Instead of interactive fiction where you fight and then watch a movie (like many RPG's today) they made games you could actually role play."

 

Eh? Old skool CRPGs didn't know what role-playing was (Ultima excluded). They wer enothing more than glorifed dungeon hacks and were proud of it. If you want to put Troika in with that group; be my guest.

 

 

Lare: Roll your eyes all you want; the truth is the truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True enough. I should have said Magic candle, Wasteland, etc. There were many dungeon hacks back in those days indeed. There were also many good CRPG's.

 

There were quite a few released each year back in those days.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"Both were unfinished and released in that state regardless."

 

SL (and, even TOEE) were both finished. The idea that they weren't is silly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

TOEE was unfinished... And SL's I came across a bug in the XBOX version, and so many people complained about the ending... People were extremely disappointed as the end, which is clearly unfinished by there accounts, I haven't seen it personally.

Edited December 29, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Volourn]

TSL's ending is finished. It just wasn't done well. There's a HUGE difference. Besdies, out of all my complaints of KOTOR2, the ending is the very least of them. In fact, it didn't bother me all that much.

 

TOEE was finished. It had a beginning, middle, and end. It may have had lots of bugs. That still doesn't change the fact that it was finished. People too easily call games unfinished, imo.

 

Very few (if any) games are actually released when unfinished.

 

Ask any developer. To them, their work is never 'finished', and they would always be adding new stuff if allowed to.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Volourn

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

TSL's ending is finished. It just wasn't done well. There's a HUGE difference. Besdies, out of all my complaints of KOTOR2, the ending is the very least of them. In fact, it didn't bother me all that much.

 

TOEE was finished. It had a beginning, middle, and end. It may have had lots of bugs. That still doesn't change the fact that it was finished. People too easily call games unfinished, imo.

 

Very few (if any) games are actually released when unfinished.

 

Ask any developer. To them, their work is never 'finished', and they would always be adding new stuff if allowed to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vologic determines Beta to equal a finished product.

 

I remember being told that TSL lacked some artwork towards the end, Textures... That screams unfinished... But I'm not certain on that.

 

ToEE needed a good few more weeks of testing, perhaps a month... It also need varification of data input, and refining of data input.

 

Many games are released unfinished, but in a working state, and many games that are finished are never released, funny little thing that, anyone ever play BG on the PSOne? LOL

Edited December 29, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Gromnir]

make fun of vol logic, but without having actually seen sl ending you is trying to argue that it were unfinished? comes up with a wonderful syllogism:

 

if sl ending lacked art as some codexians claimed, then sl were clearly an unfinished product.

 

HA!

 

weren't no noticeable missing art or dialogues that went nowhere at end or any other noteworthy absence... were simply that end were pretty unfulfilling and anti-climactic. when asked 'bout ending, chrisA made some excuse that end were done the way intended... were 'posed to be an Empire Strikes Back ending. specific noted that ending of game weren't worked on last and got short changed. 'ccording to chris A, ending were done as envisioned... were simply crappy vision.

 

is any game that has bugs unfinished? sl had, as rp points out, some pretty obvious data entry errors. does presence of those things makes game unfinished? if so we challenges you to name a crpg that has been truly finished. did sl have more such data entry bugs than did kotor? is a tough call. nobody seems to complain that kotor were unfinished, but there were loads o' minor and major data entry errors that gave some pretty bass ackwards results when selecting feats and powers. sl expanded rules quite a bit and had more such errors. never ran into a serious gameplay bug, but we understands that there were at least one... but weren't that also the case for kotor? your game could gets stuck on the leviathan as we recall. were also a few corrupted game save bugs reported for kotor.

 

as rp admits, the state of toee and sl were hardly =. am not sure how peoples determines which games is or ain't unfinished and how many bugs would makes a game qualify as unfinished seems to change from person to person, but it really ain't fair to lump toee and sl together given the vast difference 'tween how polished were troika's game compared to obsidian's offering.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

make fun of vol logic, but without having actually seen sl ending you is trying to argue that it were unfinished?  comes up with a wonderful syllogism:

 

if sl ending lacked art as some codexians claimed, then sl were clearly an unfinished product.

 

HA!

 

weren't no noticeable missing art or dialogues that went nowhere at end or any other noteworthy absence... were simply that end were pretty unfulfilling and anti-climactic.  when asked 'bout ending, chrisA made some excuse that end were done the way intended... were 'posed to be an Empire Strikes Back ending.  specific noted that ending of game weren't worked on last and got short changed.  'ccording to chris A, ending were done as envisioned... were simply crappy vision.

 

is any game that has bugs unfinished?  sl had, as rp points out, some pretty obvious data entry errors.  does presence of those things makes game unfinished?  if so we challenges you to name a crpg that has been truly finished.  did sl have more such data entry bugs than did kotor?  is a tough call.  nobody seems to complain that kotor were unfinished, but there were loads o' minor and major data entry errors that gave some pretty bass ackwards results when selecting feats and powers.  sl expanded rules quite a bit and had more such errors.  never ran into a serious gameplay bug, but we understands that there were at least one... but weren't that also the case for kotor?  your game could gets stuck on the leviathan as we recall.  were also a few corrupted game save bugs reported for kotor.

 

as rp admits, the state of toee and sl were  hardly =.  am not sure how peoples determines which games is or ain't unfinished and how many bugs would makes a game qualify as unfinished seems to change from person to person, but it really ain't fair to lump toee and sl together given the vast difference 'tween how polished were troika's game compared to obsidian's offering.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A finished product is one where a users can get from A to B without hinderance by bugs, or common occurance of CTD's. Atleast in my humble opinion.

 

A product which a user can complete without hinderance by bugs or common CTD's could be considered to be complete.

 

That is the ideal situation, naturally products get released earlier than this stage and are fixed at a later date IF their contractual obligations of the developer is to do so.

 

All Troika games can be considered unfinished despite their release, release does not mean a product is finished, it may have been deemed finished to a publishers satisfaction, this could quite easily be based upon the assumpt of cost to produce and expected sales revenue.

 

I would also consider NWN 2 upon release without patches to be an unfinished product. It suffers from terrible technical issues, bugs, graphical courruption etc...

 

Because the Design is done, doesn't mean it's finished, especially if those features are not functioning correctly within the product. Naturally design features are removed, and added as required.

 

The design document becomes a great doorstop!

 

If the artwork is not satisfactory then the product isn't complete. Naturally there is a certain standard required before it can be considered complete, it must fulfill certain properties... What they are, can vary from project to project, usually a list of required assets and animations.

 

If the code don't work, then the code clearly isn't complete. It's hard to tell if something is going to fall down when it's grows into the kinda beast a game engine is, it may work, be lovely and stable for months, then it becomes apparent that the new feature screws with the system, if that new feature is required then it all needs reworking, if not then it can be a simple as a version revision to it's previous state.

 

Grommy seems like a very smart businessman, but he is no game developer.

[Volourn]

"A finished product is one where a users can get from A to B without hinderance by bugs, or common occurance of CTD's. Atleast in my humble opinion."

 

By this wide open defintion of 'unfinished' then I have NEVER played a finished product for the PC. Not one.

 

To me, the difference we are speaking of is polished vs. unpolished and isn't in absolutes.

 

Games like TOEE, and KOTOR2 could be argued to be both unpolished with TOEE being more unpolished than KOTOR2. But, they wer eboth finished.

 

To me, a finished product is a product where the seller (publisher and to a lesser degree the developer) decides that it is in good enough shape to put on the marketplace. Theyd ecide when it is 'finished' when they decide to place the 'for sale' sign on it, and alloows potential customers to buy it.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"A finished product is one where a users can get from A to B without hinderance by bugs, or common occurance of CTD's. Atleast in my humble opinion."

 

By this wide open defintion of 'unfinished' then I have NEVER played a finished product for the PC. Not one.

 

To me, the difference we are speaking of is polished vs. unpolished and isn't in absolutes.

 

Games like TOEE, and KOTOR2  could be argued to be both unpolished with TOEE being more unpolished than KOTOR2. But, they wer eboth finished.

 

To me, a finished product is a product where the seller (publisher and to a lesser degree the developer) decides that it is in good enough shape to put on the marketplace. Theyd ecide when it is 'finished' when they decide to place the 'for sale' sign on it, and alloows potential customers to buy it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've played pleanty of products which I have been able to finish in an unpatched state without any issue.

 

Naturally patched products are in a better state, more complete. Things, problems, may not show there existence till such a date.

 

I really wished you understood that a developer cannot stop a publisher from releasing what is technically belonging to the publisher if they have financed the project.... All depends on ghey legal stuff. The publisher has so much power over developers, even to the point of forcing insane design changes. It's a crazy business.

 

Team 17 would love to develop a game that didn't involve any worms, sadly whenever they approch a Publisher they expect a worms title, Alien Breed was remade for the PS2, publishers wouldn't touch it, deemed too risky. Thus some very talented people churn out some more lovely and amazing worms games... *Sigh*

 

It really doesn't matter to you guys if I present facts as to how screwed up the games industry is, as a business.

 

Developers want to make money, but they also want to make great products... Publishers just want to make money. The publisher can be deemed, but not always there are good publishers, but they can been deemed as a freaking parasite.

 

I'm a big fan of steam, it pretty much cuts out the publisher, problem is that finding funding to make a game ain't easy. Endless cycle... in the end the developer comes out worse of all, and the real winner is the retailer.

[Volourn]

"I've played pleanty of products which I have been able to finish in an unpatched state without any issue."

 

And? With those same products are unfinishable by others. *shrug*

 

As for your lame 'woe is the developer'... here's me.. here's me NOT shedding a tear..

 

Develoeprs should grow some ballz, and guess what? Don't be so weak willed and sign a contratc just because.

]

This idea that publ;ishers don't care at all about making good games is just bullocks. It's common sense that good games usually means good money.

 

Stop making exuses for devloeprs screwing up. There are good devlopers, and there are bad devlopers. One of the bad ones was Troika which is why they lasted only 3 games despite their previous connection to popular games.

 

Troika screwed Troika. Period.

 

It seems to me that some devlopers don't know much about the business they are in either as evidenced by their constant fialure to actually sign intelligent contracts and make intelligent game devlopment plans that cna be followed.

 

You make it sound like game development is the most difficult job ever which is beyond bullocks.

[Mortis Nai]

Popular does not equal good, but it does equal good sales which the publisher's primary concern.  Everything else is secondary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm... that's an interesting theory.

 

If something is popular, that means people like it.

 

If people like it, that means it's good.

 

Your theory has been crushed by reality.

 

What you really mean is that you don't like it, so you "feel" it's not good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, he's just paying lip-service to Mr Mortis's "game as art" elitism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In theatre, we have a script, a director, a cast of actors, a set, lighting and music, along with Costume, Lighting & Set Designers.

 

Theatre is Art.

 

 

In Video games, we have a script, Several Directors, A cast of actors, Lighting and Music along with World, Level, Animation, 3D Model Designers.

 

Games are Art.

 

 

Designing a Landscape for an area in a video game requires similar skill and eye as Painting or sculpting a Landscape.

 

Creating a texture for a Building or Tree or Person literally requires an artist.

 

If you cannot see the Art within Video Games then I weep for you.

[Gromnir]

again, am not quite sure where sl is incomplete even based on NatS subjective standard. as you ain't never even played sl end it seems difficult for you to make any useful observations 'bout the quality of art of sl end. no ctds on an xbox game like sl and as rp noted, the only real bugs were data entry annoyances.

 

also, before NatS even asked the question we had already stated that we ain't a game developer (poor reading skillz, eh?) am not quite sure why he brings up yet again, or what point is attempted to be made.

 

*shrug*

 

am guessing that our oubvious lack o' creativity hamstrings us from understanding such wacky non-linear reasoning as is being offered by NatS. perhaps some sorta fine arts degree might help us understand better?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

And? With those same products are unfinishable by others. *shrug*

 

Perhaps so, but then again PC's are rather complex setups, each usually different.

 

As for your lame 'woe is the developer'... here's me.. here's me NOT shedding a tear..

 

Why would you?

 

Develoeprs should grow some ballz, and guess what? Don't be so weak willed and sign a contratc just because.

 

It usually comes down to the developer either signing to do the work, or shutting it's doors... That's not weak willed, that's staying in business.

 

This idea that publ;ishers don't care at all about making good games is just bullocks. It's common sense that good games usually means good money.

 

Not every developer is lucky enough to be on that kind of footing with a publisher. Worms 3 i believe it was, switched publisher half way through production, very lucky that for Team 17.

 

Stop making exuses for devloeprs screwing up. There are good devlopers, and there are bad devlopers. One of the bad ones was Troika which is why they lasted only 3 games despite their previous connection to popular games.

 

Who's making excuses, if the game is flawed beyond it's bugs then it's flawed period.

 

Troika screwed Troika. Period.

 

True in some ways, doesn't make their products bad.

 

It seems to me that some devlopers don't know much about the business they are in either as evidenced by their constant fialure to actually sign intelligent contracts and make intelligent game devlopment plans that cna be followed.

 

LMFAO! (w00t) Somebody lives in fantasy land, developers are at the bottom of the food chain man, they don't always have much room for moving, especially not at first. If you knew anything about development, you'd realise that even with all the planning in the world, it's going to change dramatically upon execution, it's different everyday.

 

You make it sound like game development is the most difficult job ever which is beyond bullocks.

 

I don't know of many jobs that are harder...

Edited December 29, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Volourn]

"I don't know of many jobs that are harder..."

 

Medical proffesion for starters. one mistake can lead to causing death or serious sickness, massive alwsuits, loss of jobs, or even jailtime. One mistake. It also takes upwards of a decade to become a doctor in the first place. Firefighetrs, police officers, lawyers, soliders, and a host of others are much more difficult.

 

btw, I'm not saying game devlopment is easy. It isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be so many horror stories about failures. But, that doens't mean it's super difficult either.

 

 

"LMFAO! Somebody lives in fantasy land, developers are at the bottom of the food chain man, they don't always have much room for moving, especially not at first. If you knew anything about development, you'd realise that even with all the planning in the world, it's going to change dramatically upon execution, it's different everyday."

 

LMFAO Where did I say otherwise? Again, do you really expect me to shed a tear because the poor lttle developer is so weak? I surely hope not.

 

 

"Perhaps so, but then again PC's are rather complex setups, each usually different."

 

And?

 

 

"It usually comes down to the developer either signing to do the work, or shutting it's doors... That's not weak willed, that's staying in business."

 

It is weak willed. BIO thought thy were being screwed by Interplay. They left. Guess what? They're still in business while Interplay is hanging on for dear life and haven't made a game in what? 3 years? R00fles!

 

Again, have some ballz. You need ballz to succeed in the business world - game development or otherwise. If you act like a doormat; you''ll be treated like a doormat.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Volourn

[Shadowstrider]

I don't know of many jobs that are harder...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can, quite easily.

 

Go install flooring, carpet is particularly strenuous and difficult. It has all the issues that game development has, AND physically intense.

 

Doctor, lawyer, nurse, hell baby sitting is more difficult than game development.

 

Get some perspective, game development isn't that tough.

[Shadowstrider]

Nah, he's just paying lip-service to Mr Mortis's "game as art" elitism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why, exactly, aren't games art?

 

Mass production? Multiple cooks in the kitchen? External forces and influence? All of these affect all forms of art most of the time.

 

Anyway, to get back on topic, I wouldn't consider Troika an all-time great development house. I only enjoyed Arcanum, and even then it had immense failures that hurt the game for me. ToEE and Bloodlines, meh - ToEE was a disaster for me, and Bloodlines was only enjoyable for the first 1/3 of the game or so. All of this is my opinion, obviously, but I like to hear myself talk in my own head and I enjoy the sound of my fingers hitting the keys.

[Volourn]

As do we all.