The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Sand]

Its 75/25 in my book because they went the wrong way around. They started off with their own IP when they should have hired themselves out to do a licensed product first. Do a few licensed products to build up capital then make your own IP.

[Volourn]

2 out of 3 were licensed projects. Troika is 100% responsible for their failure as they are 1009% responsible for the decisions they make.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Still, Troika's failure is 100% theirs. Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They were ambitious, didn't always implement their ideas very well, and the games suffered from this. But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game. Temple of Elemental Evil was sucking on Atari's financial tit and apparently causing some problems since the more you delay a game the more the publisher suffers with this, but as a publisher Atari knew full well the state of the game. Yet they chose to release it. While I'm not excusing Troika for their mistakes - which were rampant - the decision to ship unpolished games was not theirs. It sure wasn't Obsidian's decision to ship The Sith Lords in such a dire state, either.

[Volourn]

"But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game."

 

Disagree. Developers decide which publishers they work with, what conbtracts they sign, and how much they sign for. They are 100% responsible for their decisions.

 

3 different publishers, the same result. It's funny that they had the same publisher that BIO and Obsidian did yet we all know that NWN is still being patched TO THIS DAY, and NWN2 is also getting patched at a reasonable rate.

 

The difference? The developer.

 

Publishers are responsible for their own actions, and to their own company. They're not there (well.. shouldn't be, anyways) to babysit developers.

[Sand]

2 out of 3 were licensed projects. Troika is 100% responsible for their failure as they are 1009% responsible for the decisions they make.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes, but there first game wasn't. If they taken the safer route and done licensed products and not over stretched themselves they might still be around. Also they should have worked on a console or ported console for either there first game or second.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Developers decide which publishers they work with, what conbtracts they sign, and how much they sign for.

 

But not when it's published. Publishers generally agree with developers on a release date but if a game requires more testing or polish, publishers are still free to release it when they see fit.

 

NWN is still being patched TO THIS DAY, and NWN2 is also getting patched at a reasonable rate.

 

And were Troika given the chance to develop more patches?

[Volourn]

That was like 7+ years ago. PC games werne't quite the secondary citizens they seemingly are today. And, many companies become successful with non license products. In fact, the most successful games usually aren't licensed.

 

GTA, Sims, and Diablo ALL crush any of BIO's licesned products in terms of success (at least in terms of financially and number of sales).

 

 

"And were Troika given the chance to develop more patches?"

 

They didn't give the publishers any reason to do so. It be like giving money to someone who would just waste it. That's what Troika basically did. You don't give mor emoney to someone whose wasted it.

 

 

"But not when it's published. Publishers generally agree with developers on a release date but if a game requires more testing or polish, publishers are still free to release it when they see fit."

 

Troika sigtned the contract. Their choice. Theyw eren't force dinto it. Period.

 

 

Poor project managment is what killed Troika. It's their own fault. That's nolt saying the publishers never screwed up - they did - but Troika's decisiuons are what killed Troika; not the publishers'.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

Still, Troika's failure is 100% theirs. Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They were ambitious, didn't always implement their ideas very well, and the games suffered from this. But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game. Temple of Elemental Evil was sucking on Atari's financial tit and apparently causing some problems since the more you delay a game the more the publisher suffers with this, but as a publisher Atari knew full well the state of the game. Yet they chose to release it. While I'm not excusing Troika for their mistakes - which were rampant - the decision to ship unpolished games was not theirs. It sure wasn't Obsidian's decision to ship The Sith Lords in such a dire state, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

the sith lords were comprable to toee? maybe not best example. Gromnir player sith lords on xbox and had no serious game-killing bugs. as game were an xbox title we did not have to worry 'bout slowdowns that crippled gameplay for 1/3 of game, and while it were obvious that material had been cut from sith, it were done so in a manner that were far less clumsy and unprofessional than were manner in which toee material were cut. sith's "dire state" maybe needs more clarifying, 'cause the only aspect of sith that seemed truly terrible were the conclusion... and that crappy resolution were pretty much the result of terrible obsidian craftsmanship.

 

woe is troika. for us to fall for troika sob story we gotta believe that troika got bullied 'round by publishers who seemingly wanted nothing more than to kill troika. 'course we not seems to be given some motivation from publishers as to why they would wanna hamstring troika. publishers lose money if a troika development fails, no?

 

atari, in the case o' toee were 'tween a rock and a hard place. troika had already sabotaged the possibility o' working with atari in future by once again casting blame at feet of yet another publisher, so atari gotta ask self if giving more money to troika to make game playable were worth costs. like it or not, publishers exist in a Quarterly Report world. atari had to know that d&d name gave some guranteed sales, which if game were released as-is would generate some positive numbers for the quarterly report... or they coulds roll dice and hope that a disgruntled developer would manage to fix toee 'nuff with additional atari money so as to make up for the hit atari would take when toee showed up on yet another quarterly report as having provided no return.

 

miss end of quarter and hope that a developer that has shown a certain 'mount of ineptitude woulds be able to make toee a winner.

 

or

 

cut your losses and release game w/o throwing anymore money down the toee well.

 

atari has to take blame, but they were screwed no matter what they did. what they really shoulds take blame for is hooking up with timmy and co in first place. shoulda' called folks at sierra and interplay and done a little better research.

 

these publishers, who we must needs to believe were all spiteful fools to believes the Troika-Got-Screwed sob story, has managed to makes numerous other games with other developers. why did publishers hate troika so much? maybe publishers IS all faceless and evil tyrants, but if that is case then all developers gotta deal with same problems... and more than a few developers has thrived in spite of the destructive impulses and sinister machinations o' game publishers.

 

...

 

iwd. whenever peoples complain 'bout how troika got screwed by atari as they developed toee we recalls iwd. iwd were developed by a group o' relatively inexperienced individuals in a very short period o' time. from day 1 it were understood that goal were to be getting iwd released before bg2 and before diablo 2. were gonna be a low cost and quick development. if the largely inexperienced iwd team could put together a game like iwd in a short period o' time, then given that timmy and co. were such genius developers, then why could they not match bis' feat?

 

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of... so how come timmy not seem to know? publishers expect results and they not like having developers throw 'em under the bus halfway through development. again, Gromnir may not be a expert on game publishsing, but we knows such obvious stuff.

 

troika games were at their best before real development started. timmy would make all kinds o' promises 'bout kewl new features and fans would becomes enthusiastic...fans would buy into the game when it were little more than a notion and some concept art. then it would turn out that timmy couldn't implement his notions in a timely and cost-efficient manner. timmy would blame publishers, and troika fans who loved fo and the kewl features timmy were promising, would agrees that publishers musta' been to blame.

 

is funny. the codexians complain 'bout how hype-driven the industry is, but has there ever been a developer who managed to gets such a free ride as did troika? a handful o' guys who were partial responsible for a moderate succesful crpg were able parlay their reputaion and goodwill into not just one, but THREE opportunities to makes a crpg. each opportunity they gots ended same way... ended with a game that were far more impressive as a previewed title than as anctual gameplaying experience... ended with an unhappy publisher who felt that they had been screwed by timmy. nevertheless, fans AND publishers kept giving timmy another chance to replicate the moderate success of fo. and somehow, in spite of fact that timmy never did manage to release a good game, some folks kept buying his games and his line. is funny... really.

 

timmy were a snakeoil salesman w/o peer... the sad part were that we thinks timmy never realized that he were selling snake oil.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 28, 2006 by Gromnir

[Mortis Nai]

If nothing else, troika is an example of why there is no longer any reward in making "Good" games.

 

Everything is mass marketed, shipped out buggy as all hell and its no longer about making games, its about who can get the biggest cash cow going...

 

Troika is an example of what happens when you have people that love games, making games, And why my ideals about Video games should never be listened to... because it follows the same through line and mentality.

 

Quality VS Sales, I side on the side of quality... but that's not how the business works these days and in my heart of hearts I know it.

 

:'(

 

R.I.P Troika

[Volourn]

Except, you forget the fact that Troika failed because of its' games' lack of quality and it was that lack of quality that led to a lack of sales which led to Troika failing.

 

Both TOEE, and BL (espicially this one) were really hyped. Even Arcanum got some pretty danr hype 'cause how often did the following occur: "Here comes Arcanum from the 'creators' of Fallout!".

 

R00fles!!!!

Edited December 28, 2006 by Volourn

[Enoch]

Except, you forget the fact that Troika failed because of its' games' lack of qquality and it was that lack of quality that led to a lack of sales which led to Troika failing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I concur.

 

In fact, I am an example of that effect. Their first game had an interesting setting, but also had horrendously awful gameplay mechanics and nothing particularly interesting in the story or characters. Their second game had some good gameplay mechanics (if you like D&D roolz more than I do), but also had a horrendously boring setting and storyline. Somehow, they got the chance to make a third game, but I took the first two as my warning and didn't bother with it.

[Gromnir]

If nothing else, troika is an example of why there is no longer any reward in making "Good" games.

 

Everything is mass marketed, shipped out buggy as all hell and its no longer about making games, its about who can get the biggest cash cow going...

 

Troika is an example of what happens when you have people that love games, making games, And why my ideals about Video games should never be listened to... because it follows the same through line and mentality.

 

Quality VS Sales, I side on the side of quality... but that's not how the business works these days and in my heart of hearts I know it.

 

:'(

 

R.I.P Troika

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

bull. load of bull. making games has always been 'bout making money. furthermore, there ain't nothing 'bout the present model that prevents a developer likes troika from making good games. for chrissakes people, is not like 10 years ago the govt. stopped giving out grants to make games... is not like publishers sudden realized that they were in business to makes money for investors/shareholders. draw some sorta conclusions 'bout industry 'cause of failure of one developer? bah. most simple explanation for troika inability to makes a good game in spite of 3 attempts were that they simply weren't a competent developer... but for some reason peoples avoids simple answer in favor of wacky notions 'bout dying art 'n such.

 

troika failed. come up with whatever reasons you want to explain, but if troika can't stay in business, then they cannot make games, good or bad.

 

perhaps timmy tells self that reason troika failed is 'cause he were trying to make good games in a world that just wouldn't let him, but that is bull, and anybody that belies such nonsense is full of it too.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing. all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played. congrats... the system works.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game."

 

Disagree. Developers decide which publishers they work with, what conbtracts they sign, and how much they sign for. They are 100% responsible for their decisions.

 

3 different publishers, the same result. It's funny that they had the same publisher that BIO and Obsidian did yet we all know that      NWN is still being patched TO THIS DAY, and NWN2 is also getting patched at a reasonable rate.

 

The difference? The developer.

 

Publishers are responsible for their own actions, and to their own company. They're not there (well.. shouldn't be, anyways) to babysit developers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow a perfect example of Vologic...

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

If nothing else, troika is an example of why there is no longer any reward in making "Good" games.

 

Everything is mass marketed, shipped out buggy as all hell and its no longer about making games, its about who can get the biggest cash cow going...

 

Troika is an example of what happens when you have people that love games, making games, And why my ideals about Video games should never be listened to... because it follows the same through line and mentality.

 

Quality VS Sales, I side on the side of quality... but that's not how the business works these days and in my heart of hearts I know it.

 

:'(

 

R.I.P Troika

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

bull. load of bull. making games has always been 'bout making money. furthermore, there ain't nothing 'bout the present model that prevents a developer likes troika from making good games. for chrissakes people, is not like 10 years ago the govt. stopped giving out grants to make games... is not like publishers sudden realized that they were in business to makes money for investors/shareholders. draw some sorta conclusions 'bout industry 'cause of failure of one developer? bah. most simple explanation for troika inability to makes a good game in spite of 3 attempts were that they simply weren't a competent developer... but for some reason peoples avoids simple answer in favor of wacky notions 'bout dying art 'n such.

 

troika failed. come up with whatever reasons you want to explain, but if troika can't stay in business, then they cannot make games, good or bad.

 

perhaps timmy tells self that reason troika failed is 'cause he were trying to make good games in a world that just wouldn't let him, but that is bull, and anybody that belies such nonsense is full of it too.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing. all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played. congrats... the system works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

[Pop]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of...

[metadigital]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because that will make his observation more or less accurate?

 

ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing.  all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played.  congrats... the system works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QFT

[Dark_Raven]

Still, Troika's failure is 100% theirs. Period.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOLZ! No. It was their publishers fault.

 

P.S. EA is awesome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOLZ! No. You lose. Game Over!

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dark_Raven]

"And were Troika given the chance to develop more patches?"

 

They didn't give the publishers any reason to do so. It be like giving money to someone who would just waste it. That's what Troika basically did. You don't give mor emoney to someone whose wasted it.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am repeating myself again since it was said before, obviously Activision were being pricks about money and patches. Before Troika bit the dust some of their top people and their underlings made the final patch without any monetary award.

[Darque]

I am repeating myself again since it was said before, obviously Activision were being pricks about money and patches. Before Troika bit the dust some of their top people and their underlings made the final patch without any monetary award.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly.

[Dark_Raven]

Hell they could have said **** it, not our problem. Too bad mr. and ms gamer but no more patches for you.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because that will make his observation more or less accurate?

 

ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing.  all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played.  congrats... the system works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QFT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just that I think his observations neglect the internal workings and culture of games development...

Edited December 29, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

being a game developer is a tough biz. publishers IS more focused on quarter reports than on game developer reputation, but that is something that even Gromnir, an individula with 0 experience in the industry, is fully aware of...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Sand]

It makes sense that the publisher would be more concerned over the bottomline than actual quality. If the game doesn't make money then the quality is irrelevant to them.

[Darque]

Hell they could have said **** it, not our problem. Too bad mr. and ms gamer but no more patches for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know what you mean.

 

This is why people should have massive amounts of respect for developers like this.

[Sand]

Unfortunately one cannot pay bills with respect.