Congressman wants to use the Qur'an when sworn in

[Dark_Raven]

Yeah I'll pay you back little guy......

 

A pop in the jaw. HA HA HA HA AH

[Walsingham]

He's only joking. I won the internet in October 1946.

[metadigital]

Should I take pixies off ignore, then?

[thepixiesrock]

lol, everyone knows the internet wasn't invented until 2028, and my patent has been pending since 1936.

[metadigital]

PS everyone knows the internet wasn't invented until 2028, and my patent has been pending since 1936.

[Blarghagh]

What would/does an atheist swear on?

We either swear on the bible to not make a fuss or just pass up on religious texts altogether.

 

I think it would be good for an atheist to swear on the constitution. That's what I would pick.

[metadigital]

There is nothing in the basic tenants of Christianity or Islam that promotes violence in any way.  You can't find a passage in the Qu'ran that says it's alright to kill non-believers.  The Bible is the same way.  They are good books, and they are about living a good life.  The lessons within the pages are about charity, prayer, and faith.

 

The problem with religions in general has to do with leadership.  Both Christianity and Islam have had leaders that call for violence in the name of their religion.  When you actually compare the religions side by side, it's amazing how similiar they are and how similiar their struggles have been.  Everyone acts like Christianity is so peaceful, but in actuality it's just had more time to work out its differences.  Islam is a younger gospel, but the violence between Shi'ites and Sunni's is very reminiscent of violence between Protestants and Catholics.  It lasted for hundreds of years in Europe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have obviously never read the Qu'ran... every other page begins and ends with "God is great, love god, fear god, kill the infidels."

 

Try reading a book before touting your opinion on it.

 

Just because you "Have a copy" does not mean you have read the damn thing... just look at the Bible, Number one best seller and least read.

 

**** if the German people had bothered to read everyones favorate table book during 1940 perhaps there would be tens of millions more people still alive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh...I have an english translation of the Qu'ran right in front of me. Please feel free to direct me to the "kill infidels" section, as I can't seem to find it. During the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Hebrews were allowed to practice their religion freely in cities like Damascus and Baghdad. It was a Christian king that actually sheltered persecuted Muslims after the long trek out of Mecca into current day Ethiopia.

 

So forgive me if I doubt your "kill infidels" proclamation. I don't consider Muhammad a violent man, but he did seek to turn Mecca away from polytheism and that led to conflict. Again, if you can point me to the passage in the Qu'ran about killing infidels, I'll concede the argument and you will win the internet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop clouding a very simple bias with your dirty facts!

[alanschu]

You have obviously never read the Qu'ran... every other page begins and ends with "God is great, love god, fear god, kill the infidels."

 

Which sections of the Qur'an would this be?

 

Just because you "Have a copy" does not mean you have read the damn thing... just look at the Bible, Number one best seller and least read.

 

Seems like a pretty bold claim.

 

**** if the German people had bothered to read everyones favorate table book during 1940 perhaps there would be tens of millions more people still alive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a rather simple outlook. There were indeed anti-Semites that were able to recreate Jesus as a fighter against the Jews, in what is called Positive Christianity. This particular Christian outlook is what the Nazi Party sought to impose in Germany. It is a myth that Nazi Germany was anti-Christian. They just had a different perspective on the religion, and like had been experienced in the past, someone was trying to use religion to influence the people. They used it to fuel anti-Semitism. The whole persecution of the Jews was religiously motivated.

 

Your statement also overlooks the rather obvious fact that Hitler was exceptionally charismatic and very persuasive. I doubt reading the Bible would have made a significant difference, because they probably were reading it. Or at least some form of it.

 

The statement is also shakey because in the predominantly Christian South, Blacks were persecuted. There's the idea that Hitler used this as an example of how he can persecute the jews.

[metadigital]

**** if the German people had bothered to read everyones favorate table book during 1940 perhaps there would be tens of millions more people still alive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a rather simple outlook. There were indeed anti-Semites that were able to recreate Jesus as a fighter against the Jews, in what is called Positive Christianity. This particular Christian outlook is what the Nazi Party sought to impose in Germany. It is a myth that Nazi Germany was anti-Christian. They just had a different perspective on the religion, and like had been experienced in the past, someone was trying to use religion to influence the people. They used it to fuel anti-Semitism. The whole persecution of the Jews was religiously motivated.

 

Your statement also overlooks the rather obvious fact that Hitler was exceptionally charismatic and very persuasive. I doubt reading the Bible would have made a significant difference, because they probably were reading it. Or at least some form of it.

 

The statement is also shakey because in the predominantly Christian South, Blacks were persecuted. There's the idea that Hitler used this as an example of how he can persecute the jews.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he might be referring to Mein Kampf, which was a best-seller in Germany before Hitler was released from prison, but

[alanschu]

A brief history of time was an excellent book.

 

 

Admittedly I have not read Mein Kampf, but would reading it have lead to the holocaust not happening?

[Walsingham]

No. But paddling Herr hitler with it until he wised up might have.

[metadigital]

A brief history of time was an excellent book.

 

 

Admittedly I have not read Mein Kampf, but would reading it have lead to the holocaust not happening?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If your Auntie had wheels would she be a wagon?

 

That's an impossible question to answer, but certainly a lot of the moderates in Germany might have been a little less carried away with the tide of euphoria that Hilter rode into Austria on ...

[alanschu]

It was more a question along the lines of whether or not reading Mein Kampf would have lead people to resist the holocaust.

 

I was hoping you'd be familiar with it and could provide some insight.

[metadigital]

I confess I haven't read it, yet.

 

But it's pretty blatant in it's content, and I have a friend whose parents bought it as a living room table dressing (a topical statement for all good middle class couples to show they are in touch with the political zeitgeist of the time, which we all know now that the Germans were treated improperly after WW1).

[thepixiesrock]

Yeah, I'm sorry to confess I haven't read that one either.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I've read it (Mein Kampf). It's a lot duller than you'd think. Or perhaps it's exactly as dull as you'd think. The sections on propaganda were interesting and disturbing, as he's quite open about his techniques for manipulating public opinion, if I remember rightly. You'd think that reading it would have innoculated people against his propaganda, but apparently not. I believe it was required reading under the Third Reich.

Edited January 1, 2007 by SteveThaiBinh

[Pop]

I believe it was required reading under the Third Reich.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wait, really?

[Dark_Raven]

I've read it (Mein Kampf).  It's a lot duller than you'd think.  Or perhaps it's exactly as dull as you'd think.  The sections on propaganda were interesting and disturbing, as he's quite open about his techniques for manipulating public opinion, if I remember rightly.  You'd think that reading it would have innoculated people against his propaganda, but apparently not.  I believe it was required reading under the Third Reich.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found it boring only read a few chapters. like is that dude for real, whos going to listen to that maniac

[metadigital]

Might have lost a bit in the translation ...

[Walsingham]

I confess I haven't bothered reading it. I devote quite enough time to reading about Nazis without actually learning their code.

[metadigital]

I think it would lose a lot in the translation.

• Firstly, any translation needs a sympathetic translator, and
  
• secondly, the German language has some pretty neat grammar and vocabulary (just look at how many words English has borrowed because she doesn't have anything like them: Schadenfreude, Zeitgeist, Weltanschauung, etc).
  

[Dark Moth]

Uh...I have an english translation of the Qu'ran right in front of me.  Please feel free to direct me to the "kill infidels" section, as I can't seem to find it.  During the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Hebrews were allowed to practice their religion freely in cities like Damascus and Baghdad.  It was a Christian king that actually sheltered persecuted Muslims after the long trek out of Mecca into current day Ethiopia.

 

So forgive me if I doubt your "kill infidels" proclamation.  I don't consider Muhammad a violent man, but he did seek to turn Mecca away from polytheism and that led to conflict.  Again, if you can point me to the passage in the Qu'ran about killing infidels, I'll concede the argument and you will win the internet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ask, and ye shall receive. Enjoy.

Sura II. 190-194

 

Sura II. 216

 

Sura IV. 34 (not violence against infidels, this verse just justifies wife beating)

Sura V. 35-37

 

Sura VIII. 12-14

 

Sura VIII. 38-39

 

Sura VIII. 59-61

 

Sura IX. 29

 

Sura IX. 113 (this verse only claims that believers should not pray for forgiveness for unbelievers)

Sura XLVII. 4

 

And perhaps most frequently quoted,

Sura IX. 5

 

There. Make what you will out of it.

 

Does this mean I win the internet?

Edited January 2, 2007 by Dark Moth

[Hurlshort]

Excellent research Dark Moth. I'm not entirely sold, but I do appreciate you directing me towards the more aggressive passages in the Qu'ran. My only reservation is that most of these passages, particularly if you read the entire section, are about defending Islam. There are passages that make it very clear how much God frowns upon aggressors.

 

The wife beating passage is also a difficult one to read, but given the state of women's rights at the time, it's actually a step forward. Surah 4 is all about women and why men should share equally with them and protect them from harm. I'm just saying, I'd like to see a comparison between Biblical verses on womens rights and the Qu'ran. I imagine niether looks very good compared to more modern thinking.

[Colrom]

I found this - for your entertainment:

 

Koran

"Believers ... shall slay and be slain. It is a promise ... in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. -- Quran 9:111

Pope Benedict should have known better. When it comes to holy war and other "evil and inhuman" things, the Bible and the Quran are pretty evenly matched.

 

* Here are some evil and inhuman holy war instructions from the Quran.

1. Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191
   
2. Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216
   
3. Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74
   
4. Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
   
5. They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89
   
6. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91
   
7. The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33
   
8. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12
   
9. When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17
   
10. And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60
    
11. Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65
    
12. It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67
    
13. Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
    
14. If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
    
15. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73
    
16. Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111
    
17. O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
    
18. Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4
    

*And here are some from the Bible.

 

The Bible

1. The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3
   
2. The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19
   
3. And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35
   
4. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
   And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18
   
5. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34
   
6. And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
   
7. If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
   
8. When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17
   
9. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
   
10. So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
    
11. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20
    
12. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
    
13. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9
    
14. He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34
    
15. That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23
    
16. Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
    
17. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
    
18. He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
    

*So which holy book wins the Pope's holy war contest? I guess it depends on who is keeping score."

 

Posted by Steve Wells at 9/18/2006

 

*Edited for clarity by meta*

Edited January 2, 2007 by metadigital

[Walsingham]

What were we talking about, again?