50 reasons why.. part two

[Maria Caliban]

1: Pathfinding is something the mod creator controls. I have several areas in my mods where you can walk wherever you wish in the area.

 

Yes, you have to download something for persistent worlds. Given that everyone playing has to have a broadband connection, I don't think this is a horrible thing to demand. If you want to play a module, you have to download it and any associated files. If you want to play on a server, you have to have certain files as well.

 

2. I haven't had this problem.

 

4. I don't remember the original NWN having more armors. Playing around in the item creation screen, I've found that each part of the body generally has around fifteen different selections, all of which can be given their own coloring.

 

5. No, I don't remember that.

 

10. I can understand your frustration as the shear number of images on one screen makes it hard to pick one. On the other hand, it makes my custom images much easier to make. I think it would have been nice if the image size was 60x60 instead of 40x40.

 

11. Good point.

 

12. Another good point.

 

14. Patch 1.03 helped with this issue but I'm getting quite a bit of lag.

 

16. I can't comment on this. However, fonts are customizable, as is every graphical aspect of the gui. Have you tried asking the person who's managing your PW to alter them?

 

21. The pause button is your friend.

 

31. Chaotic stupid should never be supported.

 

37. This is not an issue. However, there's already a nude hak available if you *have* to see Neeshka's soft and jigglies.

 

42. Hmm, I disagree. Especially when compared to the original NWN. However, it's no Oblivion.

[Bokishi]

10) Inventory. Why is my scythe the same size as my scroll? And why can't I see either of them? "quick give me this or that item!" --"uhh" uhh" ok" wait" ..."no...hmm...wait think i found it...no, no nevermind that's not it"

They're called icons. Icons are representations and do not accurately portray dimensions.

 

11) No Face Generator? No Body types? Amateurish unorganic looking faces, bodies and hair? 6 years after the Sims and this isn't in a game that is supposed to be built around making your character unique?

The Sims 1 from six years ago did not have a face generator, just preset faces, with less customization than even NWN 2.

 

14) Load times. Get the popcorn and cross your finger you don't have to reboot..just from making a transition. NWN2 made good and sure you won't be playing online even if you do manage to find that servers pwc file somehow.

Crappy computer makes no excuse to bash game.

 

37) Underwear? Why are my PC's underwear enough to arm a milita? Is this because the modelers were trying to hide the poor body modeling they "baked" down and rushed out?

You want bikinis then go to Victoria's Secret website or something ROFL

[alanschu]

1. So you're saying  every server would just have some weird suspiciously outdoor feeling "cave" suddenly appear for when they wanted an elevation? That's gonna fly with all of the modders? I doubt this very much, but they will have to settle for this now wont they? In the end I feel protest will win out or community designed interior elevation tiles.

 

If someone really wanted elevation (and elevation that is infinitely more customizable than the 45 degree immersion killing ramps of NWN), then that's not an issue. Furthermore, if you were to make ALL of your cave maps in a similar style, you wouldn't even notice any sort of disjunction between cave maps.

 

 

2. Cave and Cavern Tilesets are the earmarks ..Helloo? The community will fast become familiar with the caving system tiles, and suddenly not see them.

 

Couldn't you just paint the textures of the "exterior" map with those of the Cave and Cavern?

 

To be honest, it looks like you're just trying to nitpick simply for the sake of nitpicking. Someone has presented a solution that could offer an even better improvement over the 45 degree mountains of NWN1, yet you still insist on bashing it. It'd allow for caves with uneven terrain (because lets face it, how many caves out there have perfectly flat terrain in them), walls with slopes, deep crevices and cliffs, rather than mere caves with right angle walls, flat ground, and 45 degree ramps in them.

 

I don't know, but I'm skeptical that people would take a look at a "cave" that has the sloped hills, uneven ground, and just immediately discount it (despite having way more flavour than any strict tileset can have) simply because it doesn't look exactly the same as the Cave and Cavern Tilesets. In fact, I think the only people that would, would be the people looking to nitpick things about the game simply for the sake of nitpicking.

[Riftworm]

1: Pathfinding is something the mod creator controls. I have several areas in my mods where you can walk wherever you wish in the area.

 

Yes, you have to download something for persistent worlds. Given that everyone playing has to have a broadband connection, I don't think this is a horrible thing to demand. If you want to play a module, you have to download it and any associated files. If you want to play on a server, you have to have certain files as well.

 

2. I haven't had this problem.

 

4. I don't remember the original NWN having more armors. Playing around in the item creation screen, I've found that each part of the body generally has around fifteen different selections, all of which can be given their own coloring.

 

5. No, I don't remember that.

 

10. I can understand your frustration as the shear number of images on one screen makes it hard to pick one. On the other hand, it makes my custom images much easier to make. I think it would have been nice if the image size was 60x60 instead of 40x40.

 

11. Good point.

 

12. Another good point.

 

14. Patch 1.03 helped with this issue but I'm getting quite a bit of lag.

 

16. I can't comment on this. However, fonts are customizable, as is every graphical aspect of the gui. Have you tried asking the person who's managing your PW to alter them?

 

21. The pause button is your friend.

 

31. Chaotic stupid should never be supported.

 

37. This is not an issue. However, there's already a nude hak available if you *have* to see Neeshka's soft and jigglies.

 

42. Hmm, I disagree. Especially when compared to the original NWN. However, it's no Oblivion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1. The noobs don't know that. One look at the ghost town that is NWN2 online and one would have to assume that some % over 15 of those missing were people that didn't understand why they couldnt join and never tried asking.

 

2. Hundreds are reporting it regardless. I'm one of them. I have it down to a science now to buff and attack and it's stilla good 20 seconds slower than NWN1 to do so. And in PVP that's an eternity.

 

4. I'm more interested in models than coloring. Would be nice if EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER wasn't forced to wear football shoulder pads. What happened to the various armor design options of NWN1 here?

 

5. lol.. these people do : http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewt...26250&forum=109

 

10. Agreed. It's a compunded headache in multiplayer..

 

11. You feel me.

 

12. You feel me.

 

14.Yep..

 

16. It goes well beyond fonts. We have newcomers in our forums online asking how to talk to us in game lol.

 

21. not in PVP multiplayer it's not. They need to fix this..lets be real here.

 

31. It's the linear issue again. Even if you don't want to or never did, this adds to the realism and should be included. You used to get alignment shifts this way as well.

 

37. To you it's not, but it's one less detail included. I don;t want nude characters, I want a sense of realism that when I'm changing my clothes there isnt armor painted to my skin but just underwear on...realism.

 

42. Vertex weighting is a big complaint with a big crowd. Mortas Nai says it rigth iin that Bioware managed to get bouncing hair and that was 5 years ago. Clothes not moving with the movement of body, body's not looking liek cardboard when they fall. These details add up..

 

.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[alanschu]

I'm not too familiar with the online persistent worlds, but what exactly are you guys talking about when you say "pathfinding?"

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

Also:

 

5. lol.. these people do : http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewt...26250&forum=109

 

Some people in that very same thread have stated that they feel that the spell effects are "FAR better" on the whole.

 

Not exactly the best link.

 

 

Yes there will be people disappointed about things, because that's the way people are. Be careful using internet message boards as a tool though. Not many people bother going to a game forum just to talk about how they don't have issues with a game.

 

If you were to just use internet message boards as a source, it would seem that pretty much every game is rife with horrible design decisions, game breaking poor design, and for the most part just plain sucks. For a while that is. Then games eventually get elevated to immacculate when the new stuff starts coming out.

Edited November 25, 2006 by alanschu

[Riftworm]

Yes there will be people disappointed about things, because that's the way people are. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And that's why we're talking about it.

 

Most of them are poinitng to 6 or 7 spells that look lame. I happened to agree that those same spells look lame. The IGMS, Implosion, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Weird and Wail look terrible compared to NWN1. Mage Armor and Protection in NWN1 didn't even have vfx, (MA had one when casting but no lasting vfx which was fine, PFE/G had glowing orbs coming off of you barely noticeable) but when looking at NWN2's version of those i'd rather have no vfx for those spells. The rest they mentioned just look rushed.

 

Wail of the Banshee used to be it's own little #D animation and looked and sounded sick, now it's nothing at all. The animations iin this game are so...basic and uncinematic. It's all goes to lower tha bar for games. Bioware amde these thigns cinematic that way, it looked polished and pro. Obsidian can;t even get PC animations right let alone many spells that got rushed.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Maria Caliban]

alanschu:

"I'm not too familiar with the online persistent worlds, but what exactly are you guys talking about when you say "pathfinding?"

 

The walkmesh that the toolset creates when you bake an area.

[Fenghuang]

37. To you it's not, but it's one less detail included. I don;t want nude characters, I want a sense of realism that when I'm changing my clothes there isnt armor painted to my skin but just underwear on...realism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I too feel the need for a sense of realism while I am in my inventory and changing my party's armor. This is a situation that must be rectified at once. I feel that all party members must have fashionable 20th century or later undergarments to sate my lust for realism. This situation must be rectified at once.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Fenghuang

[Maria Caliban]

I've been contemplating the caves and the interior verses exterior area creation of one. I realized that I've been coming at this as a moder who primarily creates single player games and not as someone creating for a persistent world.

 

One huge benefit of using interior tiles is that they take up far less memory. On the BioBoards the other day, I compared interior tiles to exterior terrain the other day and found that a 12x12 interior with 37 badgers and 30 altars was 2,746 kbs while a 12x12 exterior with nothing in it was 17,769 kbs.

 

That's a huge difference, especially when you're talking about PWs.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Maria Caliban

[alanschu]

And that's why we're talking about it.

 

Most of them are poinitng to 6 or 7 spells that look lame. I happened to agree that those same spells look lame. The IGMS, Implosion, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil,  Weird and Wail look terrible compared to NWN1. Mage Armor and Protection in NWN1 didn't even have vfx, (MA had one when casting but no lasting vfx which was fine, PFE/G had glowing orbs coming off of you barely noticeable) but when looking at NWN2's version of those i'd rather have no vfx for those spells. The rest they mentioned just look rushed.

 

Wail of the Banshee used to be it's own little #D animation and looked and sounded sick, now it's nothing at all. The animations iin this game are so...basic and uncinematic. It's all goes to lower tha bar for games. Bioware amde these thigns cinematic that way, it looked polished and pro. Obsidian can;t even get PC animations right let alone many spells that got rushed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And in that thread, it seems like a large chunk of the people state that despite the few flaws (such as Wail of the Banshee), on the whole, they prefer NWN2's spell animations over NWN1's. It wasn't really the best source you could find for how damning the spell animations were.

 

 

 

As an aside, am I the only person that can look at the icons next to my portraits and tell what buffs and penalties I have on? I'm not really sure how this is much different than the huge row of markers that went across the top of the screen in NWN1, with the exception of the fact that it is now easy to see what buffs my NPCs also happen to have on.

 

 

Maria: Thanks, that's what I thought. It's just I have done a lot of work with AI in the past, so when I think of pathfinding, I typically think of the algorithms that go into pathfinding, rather than the creation of the walkmesh that is utilized for the pathfinding

[alanschu]

I've been contemplating the caves and the interior verses exterior area creation of one. I realized that I've been coming at this as a moder who primarily creates single player games and not as someone creating for a persistent world. 

 

One huge benefit of using interior tiles is that they take up far less memory. On the BioBoards the other day, I compared interior tiles to exterior terrain the other day and found that a 12x12 interior with 37 badgers and 30 altars was 2,746 kbs while a 12x12 exterior with nothing in it was 17,769 kbs.

 

That's a huge difference, especially when you're talking about PWs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah interesting, that's definitely a consideration that I didn't think of. My module is for single player purposes as well.

[Diamond]

The IGMS, Implosion, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil,  Weird and Wail look terrible compared to NWN1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Say what? I thought Mage Armor was really well done (red glowing sphere and distortion effect). I barely remember how it looked in NWN1 though.

 

Can't say anything about other spells, as I'm not up to them yet.

[Lokey]

I do mod, I said not at the moment. I'm on the Dungeon Eternal X development team. I made tons of mods for NWN1, including designing all of 6th Gate, and we just finished mapping DeX for NWN2.

I would never have guessed this for some reason. Could you post a pic of such in NWN1? (Stock the only thing I can think of would be Underdark, which was better than being simply a reskin like the SoU tilesets...the only heights in mines is from the transition tiles. Plus I'd hardly call it a cave.)

 

But if you want varying elevation: you miss the part where you can make placeables walkable (Sawyer did too lol)? That you can use any tile in any combination now?

 

-

 

I find the lower level spell effects to be really overdone (mage armor, shield, energy protection) and a lot of higher level spells to be underwhelming. Too bad they didn't include any way to change this like with NWN1

[thepixiesrock]

Does anyone else think it's pretty ridiculous to have a mountain underground?

[Pidesco]

Yes.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that worm thinks 50 is a swell number, so he/she tried to takes a handful o' concerns and kinda add some fluff to fill in gap 'tween 5 and 50.

 

in any event, there seems to be few things we likes 'bout nwn better than nwn2... so far. we likes radial menus and maybe a radial menu would work for nwn2 at the moment, but not in future. radial menus with multiple sub-menus has a way o' becoming mighty unwieldy with all the various d&d options available. toee and nwn both had issues with radial menus expanding cross entire screen simply to get to some necessary option.

 

oh, and as much as we likes bioware games their art assets typically sucks. recall nwn orcs? compare to nwn2 orcs. and no, we ain't talking simply 'bout detail. nwn orcs looked cartoonish at best. even if you not like nwn2 critters at least you cannot fault obsidian for taking models straight from the source material. does we hate how nwn2 trolls look? sure we do, but that is how they look in monster manual, no? anybody recall nwn fire giants? sure, maybe it is a trivial thing but bio never seemed to get (in any of their d&d games) that fire giants were 'posed to be looking like big black-skinned dwarves... as 'posed to giant scottsmen. with 5 years to work on'em we would have expected to come up with more critters than nwn2 had, but obsidian did a much better job makings the ones they did include.

 

and we can't believe that somebody would suggest that ai for nwn were better than nwn2. nwn2 party ai is terrible, but it is surely a dozen times better than nwn1. heck, more important is fact that at least Gromnir has option to NOT use party ai in nwn2.

 

am not recalling the spell effects in nwn looking any better. most is pretty darn familiar, but the new ones seems to look better in nwn2.

 

and as for bugs. HA! nwn is the reason Gromnir no longer buys games on day 1 of release. nwn2 has some clunkiness to it, but it ain't nothing like nwn1 were... and we not have derek french trying to tell literally dozens of posters that they is imagining stuttering issues neither. nwn, out of box, were a mess.

 

the whole linear v. non-linear thing bugs Gromnir. the way people define linear v. non-linear seems crazy to Gromnir. is a pointless battle. we won't fight this one yet again. regardless, we recalls just how much peoples complained that nwn weren't non-linear 'nuff, so to be using it as some sorta benchmark amuses us no little bit.

 

oh, and what nut would suggest that nwn were better than nwn2 as far as character customization is concerned. fact that you can't make bloated v. non-bloated makes all the difference to worm? HA!

 

looks, there is things we woulda' liked to see different in nwn 2. auto-resurection drives us nuts and we woulda' liked for there to be more optional side-quests and yeah, we is disturbed by how poorly the game runs on our machine... and while we understands that bio screwed up cleric domains, we were really hopeful that obsidian would fix. *shrug* nwn2 has problems... lots of problems, but so far we sees little 'bout nwn 1 that we would say is superior to nwn2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

" toee and nwn both had issues with radial menus expanding cross entire screen simply to get to some necessary option."

 

Not true. TOEE did; but NWN1's radial did not.

 

 

Anyways, whya re people worried about this list of 50? I could make a list of 50 things NWN1 did better. I could also make a list 50 things that NWN2 does better. It's not a big deal.

 

Here, I'll do mini ones.

 

5 Things NWN1 Did Better

-----------------------------

 

1. Better Storyline

 

2. More Challenging Combat

 

3. More Non Linear

 

4. More Intuitive Toolset

 

5. Better Animation & Spell Effects Overall

 

 

5 Things NWN2 Does Better

-------------------------------

 

1. Resizing & Tinting

 

2. More Interactive Joinables

 

3. More Chaarcter Creation Options

 

4. Superior Graphics

 

5. Better Overall Use of Dialogue Skills In OC

 

 

 

 

Game over.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

unless this game gets really terrible in chapter 3, we cannot see how nwn storyline is better. nwn had a couple of nice characters (that didn't get 'nuff development) and they had a 1950s b-movie sci-fi plot in which evil hibernating lizards were emerging from eons long dormancy to take over the world...

 

and the combat in nwn were NOT more challencging. it were purposefully made ridiculous 'cause you only had one character and possibly a gimped henchman. can't make nwn enemy mages in nwn too powerful, 'cause character might not have wizard or spellcaster in their own nwn1 party. can't make melee combatants too tough, 'cause what if you is playing a solo rogue? the tactical sophistication o' nwn2 is far better than 1... but we admits that auto-resurrect gimps much of the improvement.

 

am not seeing the better animations or spell effect argument, but that is so subjective thatwe can't find a way to address. we simply can't see vol's point.

 

and as for a more intuitive toolset...

 

HA!

 

the one thing that obsidian and bio folks DID learn from nwn1 is that there is a very small number of modders out there, and to makes anything worthwhile with toolset requires considerable time, skill, and wherewithal. makes toolset for dummies? is wasted effort. the people who is gonna use toolset to do anything useful is folks who is gonna be largely undaunted by a more complex toolset.

 

oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 25, 2006 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

1. I said more intuitive. I didn't say easier. NWN2 does things in a certain way that makes the toolkset unituitive. The way it handles the toolset camera, and deleting items has nothing to do with the 'complexity' of the new toolset; but poor deisgn.

 

2. NWN1's story *is* better than NWN2's story. NWN1's story may be exactly what you say is; but that beats NWN2's story which is nothing but 'kill KOS' which I figured out as soon as KOS was mentioned. L0LLERZ.

 

3. NWN1 combat was definietey more challenging. It wasn't *hard*; but no need to eb to be more challenging than NWN2. I died 4 times during NWN2, and that was usually because of me being sloppy. I died way more in NWN1. Yeah, yeah, I know people will brag aboout never dying in either but a) they are either lying flat out or they rested inbetween every battle, or c) use the portal stone in NWN1 during battles which eaquals cowardly and the admittance that the game was hard for them.

 

 

"he one thing that obsidian and bio folks DID learn from nwn1 is that there is a very small number of modders out there, and to makes anything worthwhile with toolset requires considerable time, skill, and wherewithal. makes toolset for dummies? is wasted effort. the people who is gonna use toolset to do anything useful is folks who is gonna be largely undaunted by a more complex toolset."

 

Having a complex toolset, and being intuitive are not mutually exclusive, Little One. I would think you'd know that. In fact, NWN2's toolset is once you get past the poor untuitiveness is rather simple to use. You'd know that if you actually checked it out instead of spitting out random nonsense.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Maria Caliban]

Does anyone else think it's pretty ridiculous to have a mountain underground?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.

 

Then again, we're talking about a game where a sprawling race of evil, black-skinned elves live underground yet never has to worry about food, water, air, or space. I wouldn't be surprised to come upon a tropical rainforest underground in a NWN2 mod

[Gromnir]

the modders won't have any problems working with the toolset... intuitive or not. we think you missed point. the only folks who is gonna use the toolset to make something worthwhile is folks who is gonna dig through guts of toolset and makes themselves proficient. and you never made anything useful with old toolset, so why is you complaining? waste effort on making toolset user friendly? *shrug*

 

as for story and how you knew that you had to stop kos from start... so what? know how story is gonna end has never been what keeps story from being good or not. hibernating lizards? we never got any developement of lizards and their motivations. they were simply evil overlords. they weren't interesting or frieghtening. heck, we can't even recall the name of that evil human wizard that were boss character right before evil lizard queen. aribeth could have been a good character, and she should have been the focus, but bio screwed that up... badly. sidequest stuff like charwood is where nwn saved itself. actual core nwn story were horrible.

 

gonna have to agree to disagree 'bout combat. only reason you probably found nwn1 more challenging is 'cause henchman were so broken and that you played your own character wrong. again, 'cause biowarians knew that you didn't have a full party they could not makes combat too challenging.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Then again, we're talking about a game where a sprawling race of evil, black-skinned elves live underground yet never has to worry about food, water, air, or space. I wouldn't be surprised to come upon a tropical rainforest underground in a NWN2 mod"

 

The UD is not just another cave or undergorund. It has its own ecology including air space and, food, and water sources. I would think a drow fan would know this stuff.

 

@ Grom:

Edited November 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Maria Caliban]

Volourn, that was my point. The underdark is nothing like a real underground area, which is why I'm not surprised to see things I would find out of place in the real world.

[Volourn]

Oh, you made it sound like the UD was silly. I don't think it is. It may not be 'real world like'; but I thinmk it's logical in the game world.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Lokey]

1. I said more intuitive. I didn't say easier. NWN2 does things in a  certain way that makes the toolkset unituitive. The way it handles the toolset camera, and deleting items has nothing to do with the 'complexity' of the new toolset; but poor deisgn.

We've covered this before: how is it different? (Out of the box my controls are the same as NWN1's toolset, and Obsid even told us what the movement hotkeys are in the docs that they shouldn't have included if they wanted to do things as NWN1 did.)