50 reasons why.. part two

[Pop]

BTW:  You seem to distance yourself from NWN2 quite a bit, Sawyer.  Just curious if you don't take pride in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not really mine to take pride or shame in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A Developer working on a game is much like an Artist working on a painting.

 

It's never perfect, there is always ways it could have been improved, its never exactly what you pictured in your minds eye but eventually you have to know when to leave the hell enough alone and take what lessons you can from the experience.

 

An artist is always there worst and most brutal critic.

 

I think it is refreshing to see someone being so brutally honest about something there poured so much of there life into.

 

or so I would like to romanticise

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If a painter views his art as labor, a commodity to be sold, that doesn't make the art any less important or good, nor does it diminish the effort put into it, nor does it reflect badly upon the artist. We can't say that Mr. Sawyer should feel a certain way about his work. I can't comprehend why this is even being discussed.

[Mortis Nai]

Because picking apart someones work and creativity is far more interesting right now than the commercial break, or the discussion about underwear?

Edited November 27, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[J.E. Sawyer]

My statement was meant to suggest that because I was only the lead designer on the project for the last quarter of its development, I didn't have that much influence on it.

[Maria Caliban]

Oerwinde:

" Its "moot point" dammit."

Thank you.

 

Bokishi:

" Did medieval people even wear underwear?"

The cooler it got, the more layers they wore. Is some places, hosen (sort of like pants that fit like socks) were used, in others long tunics that reached to the knees.

 

Depending in the time and place, it's difficult to know what average people wore under their clothing as tailors didn't have patterns - they learned by rote - and depictions of people were often limited to nobility/religious figures. They're not the type of people you want to paint in their skivvies

 

Sand

I will never understand the prudishness of people not wanting to see nudity. For godsakes people, do you wear clothes in the shower?

I have nothing against nudity. I may tease but asking for scantily clad/naked models doesn't seem that odd.

 

It's interesting the different policies that WotC has for the PC as opposed to monsters.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Maria Caliban

[Riftworm]

Well now that I'm thoroughly depressed that seemingly nothing can be done about existing weapon models, armor models, skin, or game linearity, I'm basically reduced to grumbling about how I hope better animations, more monsters and weapons and armor options can be added at some point via patches.

 

After 5 years of being a modder, a guild general, a faction commander, and a dm in the original NWN series, I did have certain expectations for this game. Maybe some were unrealistic and unfair, but I don;t think many were that far out of the box or out of line with what my friends thought. It's kinda sad that Hasbro would end up being the reason for so much of my frustration with the sequels state currently. Seriously I did spend nearly 2 grand on new computer in anticipation for this game. I suppose I can try to make the best of it until Dragon Age comes out.

 

One thing is for certain I'll be in the thick of custom content to reverse everything I hate about what they restricted, in that sense, I'm still not helpless..because after all they included a toolset! ha!

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Cantousent]

That will have to suffice as your final word, which I promised you.

 

As for you, Vol, you've got the wrong of it.

 

Sure, if you want to attack villagers, then you have less freedom in a game where you can't attack villagers. The point I was making is that I never even considered attacking villagers in either game. I would not even realize the lack of freedom because it was a freedom I never considered in the first place.

 

Since I'm not into the whole thing with attacking villagers or children or whatever, I can only speak to my personal freedom within the game. I don't revel in the fact that others can't do exactly everything in these games that they desire. ...But it's not my issue either.

 

That said, NWN did not give me significantly more freedom. ...Or, to put it another way, the freedom I wanted to exercise in both games was roughly equal and both games accomodated me roughly equally.

 

I might be fanboy, and you may feel free to call me one, but that's simply a convenient label to attach to me. I've stated my opinions regarding some failings, but if the only avenue to avoid the dreaded "fanboy" label is to say I like both games in like measure or that NWN more than NWN2, then I'm afraid I'll have to live my life as a fanboy.

 

You prefer NWN. I prefer NWN2. fair enough of both ends. Frankly, I've been quite complimentary of Bioware and I've enjoyed all of their games. BG2 and KotOR remain two of my favorites. I'm sure, to some, that makes me a fanboy.

[Cantousent]

Before anyone goes hogwild in the thread, I'm the one who pruned it. See, the lack of freedom! Anyhow, send complaints to me personally rather than derail the thread. I'm heading out, so behave your drunken selves! After all, talking about nude dwarves will be the end of western civilization.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...I see the Deleter of Posts has been out 'avin' a bit o' fun again...now where's the fun in that, eh??...tree-huggers... <_<

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Maria Caliban]

Riftworm:

"Seriously I did spend nearly 2 grand on new computer in anticipation for this game."

 

This, more than anything else, frames your reaction to this game for me.

 

For me, Neverwinter Nights 2 needed to be only $46 worth of game. On the other hand, you anticipated that Neverwinter Nights 2 would be over two-thousand dollars worth of game. I can only imagine how terribly disappointing it would be to invest so much into a product and be let down.

 

I am going to guess that the original Neverwinter Nights never let you down. You came into it fresh, found a worthwhile OC, and discovered a moding network/community that has provided you with four years worth of entertainment.

 

Perhaps that should be complaint 0 on your list since it appears to me that it's the source of many of your other complaints.

[Volourn]

"You prefer NWN."

 

Really? Mayhaps you are posting out of turn there. Who said I 'prefer' NWN1 over NWN2? I surely didn't. At least not yet. I have yet to make that determination either way. But, hey, keep putting words into my posts that NEVER existed. It's your preogerative.

 

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Edited November 27, 2006 by Volourn

[Darque]

Oh Volo, you know NWN will always be your #1

 

You've put too much time into it to have it not be. :ph34r:

 

 

Speaking of which, how is the mod coming?

[Riftworm]

Riftworm:

"Seriously I did spend nearly 2 grand on new computer in anticipation for this game."

 

This, more than anything else, frames your reaction to this game for me.

 

For me, Neverwinter Nights 2 needed to be only $46 worth of game. On the other hand, you anticipated that Neverwinter Nights 2 would be over two-thousand dollars worth of game. I can only imagine how terribly disappointing it would be to invest so much into a product and be let down.

 

I am going to guess that the original Neverwinter Nights never let you down. You came into it fresh, found a worthwhile OC, and discovered a moding network/community that has provided you with four years worth of entertainment.

 

Perhaps that should be complaint 0 on your list since it appears to me that it's the source of many of your other complaints.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'll assume you just didn't read this part :

"After 5 years of being a modder, a guild general, a faction commander, and a dm in the original NWN series, I did have certain expectations for this game. "

 

I was on NWN1 from day 1.

 

Well there were a great many things I needed my new PC for outside of gaming, including rendering out Maya scenes, working unhandcuffed in mudbox and Zbrush and multtasking between the Adobe CS2 Studio and Macromedia MX Studio.

 

So the computer wasn't entirely purchased for NWN2, but it factored into the reason I decided "it's time to upgrade".

 

You want the hard truth? It's isn't some farfetched zealous and obscure thing as so many seem to want it to be to expalin away my discontent. It's simply I expected what many did : NWN1 with better graphics.

 

That's it. Is that fair to Obsidian or realistic? Probably not, but is it to be expected? I think so.

 

I still maintain all of the same gripes with NWN2, I wont "go away" or fold in that sense, I'll still campaign for the sake of future patches and rally the protesters to lean on Obsidian for a unified wishlist, but for now I'm content to toil away at editing 2das, hacking the f out of character files, and helping enterprising programmers in the mod scene design 3rd party ways to break this game open so we can all rebuild it to our liking.

 

 

-

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Volourn]

"Oh Volo, you know NWN will always be your #1

 

You've put too much time into it to have it not be."

 

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe 5 years from now, I've had played NWN2 just as much. I just don't know.

 

 

"Speaking of which, how is the mod coming?"

 

Oh SNAP!

 

More seriously, slow.

[Cantousent]

Well then, Vol, I suggest you need to put in another five years into making your NWN2 module. Then I'll be a playtester.

 

...And play hard to get all you want, but I know you love me. How's that for words in your mouth?

[Tigranes]

Well there were a great many things I needed my new PC for outside of gaming, including rendering out Maya scenes, working unhandcuffed in mudbox and Zbrush and multtasking between the Adobe CS2 Studio and Macromedia MX Studio.

 

So the computer wasn't entirely purchased for NWN2, but it factored into the reason I decided "it's time to upgrade".

 

Then your earlier statement about $2k was needless hyperbole designed to support a sense of injustice. Thanks.

 

I was on NWN1 from day 1.

 

This in no way is relevant to what Caliban said.

 

As I said, if what you really want is for Obsidian to use patches and expansions to rectify what you see as flaws in the game - and many of us agree with quite a bit of those points - then why didn't you just say so in the first place and have a coherent front for a wishlist? Making silly comparisons and laying your opinion thick as sauce over everything is not the best way to persuade Obsidian or other forumites to join your crusade. Rather than you being right or wrong, I think you went about just the worst way to preach your stance to people. Perhaps now you want to drop the other stuff and get to the core - NWN2 is good, let's pressure Obsidian to maket his better in X and Y ways - but others won't let you, because you've started off like this.

[Atreides]

I'm really getting into the OC now!

 

I just wish there was a command where I could get all other characters to Stand Ground. For example if I'm controlling my rogue and I want to sneak/disarm around, I want to hit "all others Stand Ground" once rather than commanding every other char to stay put one by one. An obvious extention of this is "all others follow me", "all others attack nearest" etc.

[Pop]

I'm really getting into the OC now!

 

I just wish there was a command where I could get all other characters to Stand Ground.  For example if I'm controlling my rogue and I want to sneak/disarm around, I want to hit "all others Stand Ground" once rather than commanding every other char to stay put one by one.  An obvious extention of this is "all others follow me", "all others attack nearest" etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a broadcast "stand your ground" command that causes all party memebers except the one you've selected to sit and do nothing, if that's what you're after. Just right click somewhere, it's on the list.

[Riftworm]

Well there were a great many things I needed my new PC for outside of gaming, including rendering out Maya scenes, working unhandcuffed in mudbox and Zbrush and multtasking between the Adobe CS2 Studio and Macromedia MX Studio.

 

So the computer wasn't entirely purchased for NWN2, but it factored into the reason I decided "it's time to upgrade".

 

Then your earlier statement about $2k was needless hyperbole designed to support a sense of injustice. Thanks.

 

I was on NWN1 from day 1.

 

This in no way is relevant to what Caliban said.

 

As I said, if what you really want is for Obsidian to use patches and expansions to rectify what you see as flaws in the game - and many of us agree with quite a bit of those points - then why didn't you just say so in the first place and have a coherent front for a wishlist? Making silly comparisons and laying your opinion thick as sauce over everything is not the best way to persuade Obsidian or other forumites to join your crusade. Rather than you being right or wrong, I think you went about just the worst way to preach your stance to people. Perhaps now you want to drop the other stuff and get to the core - NWN2 is good, let's pressure Obsidian to maket his better in X and Y ways - but others won't let you, because you've started off like this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't think you get it yet. I don't like this game the way it is right now. I think NWN1 is "better" for many reasons. I enjoyed playing NWN1 more than I did playing this game.

 

I am tired of Neverwinter Nights 1 now. And God knows I played it till I dropped, and even came back after a break and played it some more. (5 years!) It's done now. I'd like to see NWN2 include many features and options that I and friends so enjoyed in NWN1.

 

I made a list pointing to the ways I feel NWN1 was better and feel the list and it's title best illustrated that point. I was and am pretty upset at the state of the sequel. It wasn't to make friends lol - I have plenty of those that share my sentiment already.

 

If you want to make a list and title it something else and feel it's less abrasive and more "warm and fuzzy" and want to make friends, more power to you.

 

As for Maria, Yes I did get her point and she held the misconception that I popped into NWN when it was already long developed and patched with an existing community. I pointed out that was not the case, and I've been with the original since its inception.

[Cantousent]

I won't speak for Tigranes. He's more than capable of speaking for himself. I will say that I agree with his assessment. It's not about being warm and fuzzy because you're afraid to mean abrasive. It's about being effective. I don't agree with your approach.

 

Look, I'm sure you have some good points in there. In fact, I know there are some legitimate issues in your fifty points. The problem is, you don't sound like you want to improve NWN2. What it really looks like is that you want to want to bash NWN2 because it's not NWN1.

 

I don't mind being abrasive. ...But get the most bang for your abrasive buck. Some of the folks here have made similar points to yours. I didn't bring up Tigranes by accident earlier. He's made some harsh complaints about NWN2. They're legitimate issues. If you'd have gone about it differently, it appears to me that you would have had Tigranes hitting the same points home. I can't speak for him, as I've said, but I've seen his points and I've read through yours. Gromnir can be pretty damned abrasive himself. He might have joined in a rant or two. Instead, he's defending Obsidz. ...And Gromnir has a long history of attacking Obsidz for what he perceives as bad decisions.

 

You don't have to be warm and fuzzy. In fact, rant a little. Rail against the boards and the company. Heaven knows I've made waves around here myself. Just be judicious in your angst and ire. Use it to drive home your point. Don't drive away potential allies.

[Tigranes]

In response to rift's latest post:

 

Your entire post was off the point. To call my suggestions 'warm and fuzzy' is a gross simplification - who says your'e here to make friends? The point is that *if* you are here to make the case that Obsidian should fix what you see as flaws in their game, for both your enjoyment and others, then surely, it would benefit you to *win* the argument by persuading other people. This will not happen no matter how right you are if you continue to make your case in a way designed to be the most abrasive possible. If you're going to be direct and without all the 'warm and fuzzy' fluffle, be my guest - but don't stray off your own topic, forget hte NWN1 comparisons that are irrelevant to Obsidian, and simply talk about what is actually important. You didn't, and that's why there has been so much arguing back and forth between yourself and others, even when lots of people agree with you that Obsidian did make mistakes in NWN2.

 

If all you really wanted to do was *argue*, not *persuade*, that NWN1 > NWN2, then I am done with you, and so will everyone else, shortly. There is no point in such a discourse. But I still believe that this was not what you intended; that your purpose is at least a little more constructive, and the problem was simply your communication.

 

edit: and Cantousent is right, there are some points in rift's 50 that I would definitely agree needs redress. Maybe not the underwear and the weaponry, but others.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Tigranes

[Riftworm]

I won't speak for Tigranes.  He's more than capable of speaking for himself.  I will say that I agree with his assessment.  It's not about being warm and fuzzy because you're afraid to mean abrasive.  It's about being effective.  I don't agree with your approach.

 

Look, I'm sure you have some good points in there.  In fact, I know there are some legitimate issues in your fifty points.  The problem is, you don't sound like you want to improve NWN2.  What it really looks like is that you want to want to bash NWN2 because it's not NWN1.

 

I don't mind being abrasive.  ...But get the most bang for your abrasive buck.  Some of the folks here have made similar points to yours.  I didn't bring up Tigranes by accident earlier.  He's made some harsh complaints about NWN2.  They're legitimate issues.  If you'd have gone about it differently, it appears to me that you would have had Tigranes hitting the same points home.  I can't speak for him, as I've said, but I've seen his points and I've read through yours.  Gromnir can be pretty damned abrasive himself.  He might have joined in a rant or two.  Instead, he's defending Obsidz.  ...And Gromnir has a long history of attacking Obsidz for what he perceives as bad decisions.

 

You don't have to be warm and fuzzy.  In fact, rant a little.  Rail against the boards and the company.  Heaven knows I've made waves around here myself.  Just be judicious in your angst and ire.  Use it to drive home your point.  Don't drive away potential allies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's your right to not agree with my approach. Though I'm upset, and you are not.

I get enough "support" and "allies" from actual friends on the issue to care if you personally don't feel my list or anger is "effective". I don;t know that I was aiming to be "effective" rather than simply pointing out what I feel is better about NWN1.

 

There were plenty that freely admitted to agreeing with many points in here to validate they aren't "ineffective"..enough for me anyways.

 

So while I understand what you are saying, I'm not entirely sure I see where I was so outrageous and off the wall.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Volourn]

"If all you really wanted to do was *argue*, not *persuade*, that NWN1 > NWN2, then I am done with you, and so will everyone else, shortly."

 

Oh, come on. This is the second thread on this issue and Rift didn't even start it. Obviously, very few here are 'done with him'.

 

Heck, Cant has evn gone so far as ordering ME which I game I prefer when I stated no such thing.

 

And, no, Cant, you would NOT be a tester for me.

 

 

"So while I understand what you are saying, I'm not entirely sure I see where I was so outrageous and off the wall."

 

The problems comes when instead of discussing just his points, people including yourself land up discussing Rift himself. He's not important. His points are.

 

I agree with some. I disagree with some. That's life. *shrug*

[Tigranes]

Oh, come on. This is the second thread on this issue and Rift didn't even start it. Obviously, very few here are 'done with him'.

 

And we're all suckers for it.

 

Actually, Volourn, this forum has seen lots of constructive debate about the points at hand alone, without rift's presence, and we are all capable of recognising such faults. Riftworm need not be here to tell us they are there, we are not blind, and it seems to me that the discussion he precipitated in this thread is no longer of any value. Since he says he is not out here ot persuade anyone, then he is simply here to argue his point over, and over, again, and that helps nobody and isn't entertaining either.

 

Hopefully some of the activity that has been siphoned here can filter back out into other threads so that we don't see a perpetual upkeep of this one clambering menagerie.

[Riftworm]

Oh, come on. This is the second thread on this issue and Rift didn't even start it. Obviously, very few here are 'done with him'.

 

And we're all suckers for it.

 

Actually, Volourn, this forum has seen lots of constructive debate about the points at hand alone, without rift's presence, and we are all capable of recognising such faults. Riftworm need not be here to tell us they are there, we are not blind, and it seems to me that the discussion he precipitated in this thread is no longer of any value. Since he says he is not out here ot persuade anyone, then he is simply here to argue his point over, and over, again, and that helps nobody and isn't entertaining either.

 

Hopefully some of the activity that has been siphoned here can filter back out into other threads so that we don't see a perpetual upkeep of this one clambering menagerie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

um We've been discussing it just fine for the past 10 pages now. I was actually done until others continued to address me, to which I responded.

 

He's right though, you and the moderator made it about me while we were content discussing my points earlier.

 

 

-

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[kirottu]

He's right though, you and the moderator made it about me while we were content discussing my points earlier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if you call laughing at your points discussing then I agree with you. Actually, I don