I need some advice please

[Jorian Drake]

I'd have thought you should just quit worrying about balance. I mean why not balance toads as a PC race? It ought to be about the roleplaying. It's not a  wargame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, in a world there are things that are just stronger than other things one way or the other, or even in anything.

No need to make a rabbit the same as a T-Rex

[Volourn]

"Dwarves: I consider dwarves to be rather clumsy people (they dont even know how to walk silently) +2 CON, -2 DEX. However, they are strong but fugly: +2 STR and -2 CHA"

 

That must explain why they are excellent craftsman and have excellent scouts. On top of that, dwarves are NOT ugly. Not to mention charisma is about force of personality and not too many beings have a stronger force of personality than dwarves do.

[ramza]

Ok, I aknowledge that messing with the bonus stats and penalties each race gets isnt the brightest thing to do, but I was just suggesting some ideas.

 

I still dont like the way races are handled in d&d. Volourn just pointed two accurate things that prove that it isn't justified for dwarves to get a -2 to cha or dex. But what should they get instead? I have to admit that dwarves are supposed to be ugly and untidy (with their beards and stuff). The -2 to cha is justified since charisma takes into account beauty among other criteria.

 

Can you think of other alternatives for each race? I do believe that dwarves, elves and half-elves are the ones that are problematic.

 

Half-elves deserve to get a bonus stat and a penalty to another stat as they are a race as a whole. The way they are designed in d&d cant be satisfactory in any way.

 

Another problem is with elves. They are known for their agility and natural grace, so they should get +2 to both dex and cha. Yet, the Phb only gives them a +2 to dex.

[Musopticon?]

supposed to be ugly and untidy (with their beards

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Hey!

[Jorian Drake]

Ok, I aknowledge that messing with the bonus stats and penalties each race gets isnt the brightest thing to do, but I was just suggesting some ideas.

 

I still dont like the way races are handled in d&d. Volourn just pointed two accurate things that prove that it isn't justified for dwarves to get a -2 to cha or dex. But what should they get instead? I have to admit that dwarves are supposed to be ugly and untidy (with their beards and stuff). The -2 to cha is justified since charisma takes into account beauty among other criteria.

 

Can you think of other alternatives for each race? I do believe that dwarves, elves and half-elves are the ones that are problematic.

 

Half-elves deserve to get a bonus stat and a penalty to another stat as they are a race as a whole. The way they are designed in d&d cant be satisfactory in any way.

 

Another problem is with elves. They are known for their agility and natural grace, so they should get +2 to both dex and cha. Yet, the Phb only gives them a +2 to dex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if you incist on +2 or 4 and such you can't really show the small difference between elf/half-elf/human.

 

If you want to chage ability scores , than just add +1 Dex and -1 Con, that's between the two 'parent races'.

[ramza]

so you suggest that half-elves should get +1 DEX -1 CON, their standard abilities, plus one bonus skill point every two levels, for example?

 

The problem with that is that the half-elf race becomes some kind of hybrid race without its own specifities or originality. That is why I suggest giving them a +2 to WIS and -2 to CHA (for the reasons mentioned in one of my previous posts) instead.

 

BTW, when I examine the 6 Basic races, I want to give a bonus in a different stat for each one of them. That way, the player will have a choice in regards to which race can suit better his character. For example, half-elves, as I just decribed them, would be potentialy good divine spellcasters.

 

My main problems, here again, are dwarves and elves.

I can keep dwarves as they are: +2 CON, -2 CHA

but what about elves? Don't you think they deserve getting a bonus to both DEX and CHA? Elves are known for their agility and beauty after all... But to balance things, they need a penalty to 2 other stats. Since they are know to be frail, I could give them a -2 to CON. Should that justify a -2 to STR too though? Can you think of another penalty?

[Sand]

Charisma is more than just looks, Ramza. It is a measure of force of personality and how well you can get along and influence others. Elves tend to be aloof and some isolationistic.

[Walsingham]

Sand has apoint. I don't care how shiny they look, elves always annoy the bejebus out of me.

[ramza]

If you use that logic, then how do you justify the -2 for dwarves? They have a very strong personnality... Whatc penalty would best suit them? -2 to DEX? except for the crafting arts, they arent famous for being discreet and agile...

[Sand]

Yes strong personality but very dour and standoffish, thusly not able to influence others all that well. Also they tend to seclusive instead of outgoing. Now if you use Gold Dwarves as the basis for your dwarf they have a -2 to Dexterity instead of Charisma. Crafting is based on Intelligence.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Sand

[jaguars4ever]

If you use that logic, then how do you justify the -2 for dwarves?

Well, they have short arms and the have short legs so logic dictates that they have short...

[Musopticon?]

...tempers?

 

I think the charisma thing has more to do with the fact that dwarves are naturally reclusive, not exceptionally social and differ quite a bit from the normal humanoid beauty archetype.

 

I mean, sure you can offset ugliness, short stature and xenophobia somewhat with a good personality, but that still doesn't give you a charisma that compares to say a half-elven bard, succubus or a trained agent.

[Tigranes]

But then, surely a dwarf must have more charisma with his own race than, say, Elves do. Artificial modifiers I suppose correct this (i.e. You're Dwarf, so I'll listen to you despite your 6 charisma).

[Musopticon?]

Yeah, I suppose there should be a race relations table and checks. Kind of like how different races specialize in different enviroment:

[Sofaking]

Yeah, I suppose there should be a race relations table and checks. Kind of like how different races specialize in different enviroment:

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That

[Musopticon?]

Well, you painted a whole race as drunkards. I don't think it's fair to generalize like that, D&D has moved away from that kind of Gygax- clichefare where hobbits are stout an' jolly and goblins always evil and stupid

 

 

I didn't mean that everyone thinks dwarves are ugly. Let's put it this way, dwarves don't generally find elves very hot, mostly because the races are so apart in both physiology and standards.

[Walsingham]

Indeed. Alternatively you could have something far more amusing and have tall thin dwarves considered hideous by their own kind and kinda cute by humans. Similarly a short squat man might be thought plain by elves and hot by dwarves. that is, just as fat women are held in different esteem by diffferent cultures.

[Jorian Drake]

I have to mention I dislike nearly all your modifications...I hope you are using these only in your own world, and don't force them on the players in other worlds (like Faerun).

[ramza]

These were just ideas! I havent implemented anything yet, and may probably never do it since, lately, I have been playing a p&p session per year.

 

It's just that I am not satisfied with the 3.5E Phb. Many of the rules don't correspond to the idea I have of some races or classes. For example, I HATE PrC and have thought of system similar to the 2E kits. I won't go into details since people will start flaming me again...

[ramza]

After some tought, I decided to change the Hitdie for both cleric and druid classes to d6 (instead of d8). Both classes will suffer from divine spell failure for wearing armor greater than light armor. However, they will keep the same skill points, same saving throw progression, same BAB and same spell progression tables.

 

I don't know about shields however... should clerics and druids be able to carry shields? I have thought of only giving them a proficiency for bucklers only, and the ability to ignore spell failure from these bucklers...

[Musopticon?]

What about war priests and shape shifters?

 

No, I'm not talking about prestige classes, but folks who have chosen a more active role on the front.

[Jorian Drake]

After some tought, I decided to change the Hitdie for both cleric and druid classes to d6 (instead of d8). Both classes will suffer from divine spell failure for wearing armor greater than light armor. However, they will keep the same skill points, same saving throw progression, same BAB and  same spell progression tables.

 

I don't know about shields however... should clerics and druids be able to carry shields? I have thought of only giving them a proficiency for bucklers only, and the ability to ignore spell failure from these bucklers...

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*sigh*

[Spider]

I have to mention I dislike nearly all your modifications...I hope you are using these only in your own world, and don't force them on the players in other worlds (like Faerun).

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I just have to ask, what is wrong with him using these modifications in Faerun? If it makes him a better GM (because he likes and appreciates the rules he's actually using) won't it make for a better game almost by default?

[Walsingham]

I'd rather play in a slightly duff system that was imaginative and personal, than an impersonal off the shelf system. Speaking purely personally.

[Sofaking]

Well, you painted a whole race as drunkards. I don't think it's fair to generalize like that, D&D has moved away from that kind of Gygax- clichefare where hobbits are stout an' jolly and goblins always evil and stupid

 

 

I didn't mean that everyone thinks dwarves are ugly. Let's put it this way, dwarves don't generally find elves very hot, mostly because the races are so apart in both physiology and standards.

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The () were there to show it was just a joke...

 

I agree with you, that