A new crisis on the horisont

[Gorth]

It might just be me, but I think Gromnir was using sarcasm

 

Even if he wasn't, I couldn't care less if people want to buy our goods or not. They are free to do whatever they please.

I like danishes.

Good girl

[Judge Hades]

So do I.

 

*munch munch munch*

[roshan]

there is a fine line when it comes to satire/comedy/karikature and ironic statements.. While we glady make fun of Christians we don't do so out of spite - but even if we do we are all a part of the religion and so we are poking fun at it from the inside.. which is something different entirely! White people can make all the jokes they want about other white people (from the inside as well), but once white people are poking fun at other ethnic groups a line has been crossed.. this we accept fully in western society! so why is that different from religion?

 

When one group laughs at the expense of another group they are humiliating them, this is simple psychology.. The muslims world must feel attacked because it seems to them that both our religion and our culture thinks less of them - since we are ridiculing their most sacred..

 

(edit: This is where Danes are misunderstood - we make fun of people to show them that we accept them .. because we use humor to create a bond - and irony to show our friend that we can make fun of them, that they are part of the inner circle .. you can't make fun of anyone, in a good way, unless you truely accept them)

 

what we need to understand is that we can't go about feeling superior - because I suspect we do! this again adds to the insult.. while they are clearly crossing a much more serious line than us - by burning embassies and killing (mostly each other) - we must still accept and understand that these feelings stem from something deeper! they don't just simply hate us by default - they are human beings and we are stepping on both their culture and religion all the time, if ever so diplomatic and "acceptable" (by western standards) .. it's the lack of respect that is the issue here - not wether or not we have a right to do it (by our laws)..

 

I doubt that both Europeans and Americans truely wish to understand the world around us .. we are happy enough to see things from our perspective and judge others accordingly - our cultures have been dominant for the last millenium - so we must be right! right? ..... I feel that this is the overall sentiment, even if it's not expressed .. so I totally understand why we are regarded as arrogant and distant.. we sit from our high courts and judge all those who lead different lives than us .. while I can understand the need to control, for instance, Irans ability to aquire Nuclear Weapons. I can't help but feel a bit hypocritical about it - we are like the bully at school who refuses other kids to play anything but our game!

Now I'm not saying we should disregard countries who openly supress their populace, but we need to back down just a bit - we can't control the world, nor should we .. if we are to influence them culturally we must do so by conviction and not force! You can't make a functional democracy through force of military or threaths.. although there are some evils in this world that must be fought - I just wish we wouldn't fight everything we see as too different..

 

- Rosbjerg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I am a Hindu, and in the west images of Hindu gods have been printed on toilet seats and slippers. Quotations from the Gita were played during a sex scene from Eyes Wide Shut. Now I dont like the fact that this is being done. But western people dont believe in Hindu gods and Hindus cant expect westerners to follow their culture.

 

We dont see Hindus flipping out and randomly killing people and throwing molotov ****tails over these insults. In fact in India there have been movies made that make fun of Hindu gods. But in India, books that criticize Islam (like Rushdies book) are banned, thus, no criticism of Islam is possible in the country.

 

Why do Muslims react the way they do? Why do they kill people and riot over drawings?

 

If Muslims dont want freedom of expression in their countries then thats fine with me. Its their countries and they can do whatever the hell they want over there. But they have no right to try to take away our freedom of speech and expression in our own countries.

[roshan]

Yes, I think the world should make rude drawings and insulting cartoons about Americans in general, Bush in particular, toss in a few Jesus and Christian insults, then entire countries should hold contests to see how vile they can be in portraying Israelis... oh wait, that's already been done.  In fact, it's all already been done, and is basically being done on an almost daily basis around the world, from ridiculing cartoons and comedy skits to truly hateful commentaries and mean-spirited movies, and everything in between.  Nobody cares about pissing off America, Israel, Christians, politicians of every hue, Europeans, hell, nobody much cares about pissing off anyone on the planet... except Muslims.  They and they alone have the apparent inalienable right to not be pissed off.

 

Well, it pisses me off no end that while much of the globe feels quite justified in hurling insults and ridicule rather routinely those listed above, among others, and expects all those folks to merely suck up the insult as the "mature" thing to do.  Meanwhile, Muslims manage to riot, burn and even kill when they feel insulted, but that's okay because people should have known better than to violate their Islamic sensitivities?  I don't think so.

 

Another example of global double standards, in my opinion... and no, I don't buy the "held to a higher standard because we are better than them" rationale, which is nothing more than a platitude to justify why it's supposedly okay to expect more from one group of people that we expect from another group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

QFT.

 

By the way - in New Jersey USA - the Jews here beat the crap out of the Nazis and their  sympathizers when they gathered to spread their antisemetic hate and enlist new supporters in the 30s and the 40s. Sadly, fear is a proven restraint for hatespeach.

 

So it is not just Muslims who act out when treated badly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Nazi's weren't drawing cartoons. They were gathering support for an initiative to wipe out the Jewish people.

 

The Jewish people didn't start a deluge of death threats, and then proceed to act on them. They didn't throw bombs into the Nazi's embassy. They didn't go on killing sprees because of a ****ing drawing.

 

I don't know where you got your meaning for "acting out" but judging by this statement I'm pretty sure it's just a tad bit off base.

 

Di's got a strong point, which I happen to agree with. They can make fun of the western world, piss on its idols, and kill our people...but a drawing...a line has been crossed! Heaven forbid an insulting drawing was made of a warlord from the ancient world who created a religion based on the other major religions at the time...which were derived from others, and so on and so forth. We should line up to die for such an affront!

 

FFS. They can shut the hell up and take it. It's a god damned drawing and not worth the blood of ANYONE, regardless of their religion or descent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

QFT.

[Rosbjerg]

I am a Hindu, and in the west images of Hindu gods have been printed on toilet seats and slippers. Quotations from the Gita were played during a sex scene from Eyes Wide Shut. Now I dont like the fact that this is being done. But western people dont believe in Hindu gods and Hindus cant expect westerners to follow their culture.

 

We dont see Hindus flipping out and randomly killing people and throwing molotov ****tails over these insults. In fact in India there have been movies made that make fun of Hindu gods. But in India, books that criticize Islam (like Rushdies book) are banned, thus, no criticism of Islam is possible in the country.

 

Why do Muslims react the way they do? Why do they kill people and riot over drawings?

 

If Muslims dont want freedom of expression in their countries then thats fine with me. Its their countries and they can do whatever the hell they want over there. But they have no right to try to take away our freedom of speech and expression in our own countries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I no way was I implying that killing people is ok .. or even justifiable .. but at the same time I'm still arguing that putting Hindu Gods on toilet papir is unaccetable! while it may not offend you personally it's all most sure to offend someone .. Freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to be outright hostile (well actually it does).. What I'm asking for is some commen sense.. some standards in behaviour and some respect for other religions and ethnic groups! now the ME definitely needs that in buckloads! but so do we .. while we are not burning down their houses, we are occupying Iraq at the moment and supporting Israels war on the Palastiniens.. (just to be clear; I actually don't care who owns what down there - I'm just not very happy about how they are working out their problems)

 

While we may think that alot of what we do is perfectly acceptable - it may be considered a grave insult in other parts of the world! I only call for greater understanding - because I'm sure that with respect comes openmindness.. and we need that alot!

 

- Rosbjerg

[roshan]

I am a Hindu, and in the west images of Hindu gods have been printed on toilet seats and slippers. Quotations from the Gita were played during a sex scene from Eyes Wide Shut. Now I dont like the fact that this is being done. But western people dont believe in Hindu gods and Hindus cant expect westerners to follow their culture.

 

We dont see Hindus flipping out and randomly killing people and throwing molotov ****tails over these insults. In fact in India there have been movies made that make fun of Hindu gods. But in India, books that criticize Islam (like Rushdies book) are banned, thus, no criticism of Islam is possible in the country.

 

Why do Muslims react the way they do? Why do they kill people and riot over drawings?

 

If Muslims dont want freedom of expression in their countries then thats fine with me. Its their countries and they can do whatever the hell they want over there. But they have no right to try to take away our freedom of speech and expression in our own countries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I no way was I implying that killing people is ok .. or even justifiable .. but at the same time I'm still arguing that putting Hindu Gods on toilet papir is unaccetable! while it may not offend you personally it's all most sure to offend someone .. Freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to be outright hostile (well actually it does).. What I'm asking for is some commen sense.. some standards in behaviour and some respect for other religions and ethnic groups! now the ME definitely needs that in buckloads! but so do we .. while we are not burning down their houses, we are occupying Iraq at the moment and supporting Israels war on the Palastiniens.. (just to be clear; I actually don't care who owns what down there - I'm just not very happy about how they are working out their problems)

 

While we may think that alot of what we do is perfectly acceptable - it may be considered a grave insult in other parts of the world! I only call for greater understanding - because I'm sure that with respect comes openmindness.. and we need that alot!

 

- Rosbjerg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course having Hindu gods on toilet paper would offend me. But in a democratic society people have the right to have whatever they want on their toilet paper. And as part of a democratic society I must respect other peoples rights. Also, just as others have the right to insult me by abusing Hindu symbols, I also have the right to insult Christianity or any other ideology that I choose. We respect other peoples right to have different views from us, and through this mutual respect for each others rights we live together peacefully for the most part.

 

Religions are ideologies and no ideology should be immune to criticism. Also, no person is immune to criticism no matter who it is. Thus we have the right to criticize Islam and to criticize Mohammed, just like we can criticize any other ideology or person. I have no problem with anyone saying Hinduism sucks as much as I dont have any problem with people criticizing Nazism or any other ideologies because all of us have the right to believe and say whatever we want to as members of democratic societies.

 

I dont give a damn about the rest of the world. If they want to remain in the dark ages where individuals dont have the freedom of expression then so be it. But I do have a problem with third world fundamentalists and their left leaning supporters who are trying to use intimidation and bullying in order to take away our freedom. As far as I am concerned these protests against the Danish cartoons and the Popes remarks are just another form of terrorism, another method being used to intimidate us into relinquishing the freedom that we have.

[Rosbjerg]

well I fully support the Danish cartoons as they we meant as a means to alliviate a debate .. criticism - not provocation .. which is what I'm against .. that's the kind of respect I'm seeking . of course you have the right to criticize Democracy or Christianity, but I draw a line with ridiculing for the sake of provocation.. which was the point with the newest drawings (which we are discussing here in part)

 

Fundamentalist are not part of my argument .. they are beyond reach (in any ideology/religion etc) and as such are beyond debate and reason.. so I don't take their feelings into account.. But the average Muslim shouldn't be ridiculed under the banner of Free Speech! nor should any Christian or Hindu - people have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it right..

[roshan]

These drawings were made by drunk youths who just wanted to have fun. I dont see any malice or intent to provoke anyone in that.

 

Also, what is wrong with ridiculing anyone? As I said I do not have a problem with Hinduism being ridiculed(despite not exactly liking it either). The average Christian and Jew may not want their religious figures to be ridiculed but they are willing to extend the right to ridicule their religious personalities to other people. If we find any ideology to be ridiculous then we have the right to ridicule that ideology.

 

The question that needs to be answered is why most cultures are willing to accept ridicule and why the Muslims cannot. Another question that needs to be asked is why the leftists are so much against Islam being ridiculed while never condemning the ridicule of any other religion.

[Judge Hades]

I think those who think they are right in killing others or promote violence, regardless they are Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist or whatever need to freaking grow up. Just because someone has a different view, or a different lifestyle, or makes cartoons does not give you the right to go all ballistic. Mind your own damn business and leave them alone. If they are doing no physical harm against you or constantly in your face then pay no attention to buggers.

[Rosbjerg]

These drawings were made by drunk youths who just wanted to have fun. I dont see any malice or intent to provoke anyone in that.

 

Also, what is wrong with ridiculing anyone? As I said I do not have a problem with Hinduism being ridiculed(despite not exactly liking it either). The average Christian and Jew may not want their religious figures to be ridiculed but they are willing to extend the right to ridicule their religious personalities to other people. If we find any ideology to be ridiculous then we have the right to ridicule that ideology.

 

The question that needs to be answered is why most cultures are willing to accept ridicule and why the Muslims cannot. Another question that needs to be asked is why the leftists are so much against Islam being ridiculed while never condemning the ridicule of any other religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

it seems you and I have opposing views... and preset views of each others opinions as well.. so this discussion is going in circles..

I'm gonna point out one more time that I'm not defending Islam - I'm merely asking for more respect.. I don't think ridiculing is ok, because there's no point to it other than hurting other people.. and malice/spite should be avoided in global discussions.. we must accept the fact that others are different, and if a person is mature and openminded s/he can question a religion doctrine - without the need for childish accusations and contempt..