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Vista gaming will be 10 to 15% slower than XP


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#61
Dark Moth

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Well this is all a real letdown. I was holding out on buying Windows XP for my Macintosh simply because Vista was coming out so soon. Seems I may have to rethink my strategy now... :)

#62
Pidesco

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I usually only upgrade my OS when I'm forced to do it.

For example, I only left Win98 SE when it stopped me from connecting to a network at a LAN party.

#63
metadigital

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So if you design a new security system, you can't get it supported in Windows Vista until well-known computer security experts like MGM, 20th Century-Fox, and Disney give you the go-ahead (this gives a whole new meaning to the term "Mickey-Mouse security"). It's absolutely astonishing to find paragraphs like this in what are supposed to be Windows technical documents, since it gives Hollywood studios veto rights over Windows security mechanisms.

That sounds completely ludicrous.

The document reveals that movie studios will have explicit veto power over what is included in some parts of Vista. For example, pages 22-24 describe the “High Bandwidth Cipher” which will be used to encrypt video data is it passes across the PC’s internal PCIe bus. Hollywood will allow the use of the AES cipher, but many PCs won’t be able to run AES fast enough, leading to stutter in the video. People are free to design their own ciphers, but they must go through an approval process before being included in Windows Vista. The second criterion for acceptance is this:

"Content industry acceptance
The evidence must be presented to Hollywood and other content owners, and they must agree that it provides the required level of security. Written proof from at least three of the major Hollywood studios is required."
[output content protection white paper]

AES is a big drain on resources for sure; though I see what's going on here: the particular stipulation isn't as completely insane as it sounds. The encryption is just for the digital content, and the substitution of a better decryption algorithm isn't critical to the OS. I can see that there might be a business case for a superfast AES chip, though ..!

AES-128 on a modern CPU isn't fast enough to encrypt high-bandwidth content, companies are required to license the Intel- owned Cascaded Cipher, an AES-128-based transform that's designed to offer a generally similar level of security but with less processing overhead.

That's not to say that Vista's DRM seems completely unwieldy. Besides the fact that it will be cracked almost immediately (if it hasn't been already); to avoid the hardware key issue, crackers can just find the content's own key:

there's no way to un-publish the title key (encrypted content + title key = unencrypted content), at that point it's game over for the content.


Added to that is the patently insane DoS potential. The "tilt bit" can easily be deliberately triggered.

a tiny, easily-hidden piece of malware would be enough to render a machine unusably unstable, while the very nature of Vista's content protection would make it almost impossible to determine why the denial-of- service is occurring.
...
Even without deliberate abuse by malware, the homeland security implications of an external agent being empowered to turn off your IT infrastructure in response to a content leak discovered in some chipset that you coincidentally happen to be using is a serious concern for potential Vista users. Non-US governments are already nervous enough about using a US- supplied operating system without having this remote DoS capability built into the operating system.

Time was when Windows NT was secure enough to be used in secret military installations (C2 rated if the physical location was secure); looks like Vista won't be used anywhere.

"Since [encryption] uses CPU cycles, an OEM may have to bump the speed grade on the CPU to maintain equivalent multimedia performance. This cost is passed on to purchasers of multimedia PCs"

Looks like a two-tier PC industry is dawning: I will be pleased to not use my PC for any video playback and just for games, to cut this extra cost, but how many others will?

If I do ever want to play back premium content, I'll wait a few years and then buy a $50 Chinese-made set-top player to do it, not a $1000 Windows PC.

:-"

A further example of external meddling in hardware vendors' product development and distribution can be found in the document that specifies what happens when a product is compromised in some way even though it's previously been found to be fully compliant with the robustness requirements:
"Company shall promptly redesign the affected product [...] if such redesign is not possible or practical, cease manufacturing and selling such product"

That is not going to work: sooner or later manufacturers are going to start looking elsewhere for an OS ... until this, I didn't think Linux would have a chance as an alternative OS for the mainstream industry ...

The onerous nature of Vista's content protection also provides a perverse incentive to remove the protection measures from the content, since for many consumers that'll be the only way that they can enjoy their legally-acquired content without Vista's DRM getting in the way. This is already illustrated in the "Quotes" and "Footnotes" sections, where the people bypassing HD-DVD protection measures aren't hardcore video pirates but ordinary consumers who can't even play their own legitimately-acquired content. The sheer obnoxiousness of Vista's content protection may end up being the biggest incentive to piracy yet created. Even without overt "piracy" (meaning bypassing restrictions in order to play legally-purchased media), it makes very sound business sense for companies to produce hardware that bypasses the problem, just as they have already with region-free play-anything DVD players. Perhaps Hollywood should heed the advice given in one of their most famous productions: "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers".

:dancing:

so Microsoft will totally control the premium-content distribution channel. Not only will they be able to lock out any competitors, but because they will then represent the only available distribution channel they'll be able to dictate terms back to the content providers whose needs they are nominally serving in the same way that Apple has already dictated terms back to the music industry: Play by Apple's rules, or we won't carry your content. The result will be a technologically enforced monopoly that makes their current de-facto Windows monopoly seem like a velvet glove in comparison.

Interesting conclusion; I think he may be right (Microsoft's business model frequently and even usually consists of playing catch-up after going to school on someone else's good idea).

#64
Diamond

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A further example of external meddling in hardware vendors' product development and distribution can be found in the document that specifies what happens when a product is compromised in some way even though it's previously been found to be fully compliant with the robustness requirements:
"Company shall promptly redesign the affected product [...] if such redesign is not possible or practical, cease manufacturing and selling such product"

That is not going to work: sooner or later manufacturers are going to start looking elsewhere for an OS ... until this, I didn't think Linux would have a chance as an alternative OS for the mainstream industry ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More likely Apple will seize on the opportunity.

#65
metadigital

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Well, OSX is just Apple's GUI on a Linux distro. ;)

But I agree, Apple must be licking their lips here.

I was thinking more about the countries around the world who aren't particularly happy about having their infrastructure run by a US company (Microsoft).

#66
Surreptishus

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What would prompt game developers to start producing games for Linux or Macs en masse?

#67
Gfted1

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Only a mass exodus of Windows users.

#68
Gorth

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What would prompt game developers to start producing games for Linux or Macs en masse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Mac or Linux game console? ;)

It's not like you can get them to produce games for pc's en masse anymore.

That being said, I think I'll go out and buy myself an extra Windows XP Pro next payday for my current WIP computer. Better grab them while they are still there. I'll wait a few years before seriously considering Vista.

#69
metadigital

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What would prompt game developers to start producing games for Linux or Macs en masse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only a mass exodus of Windows users.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, it would only be from market forces.

My observation was that Microsoft are leveraging their hegemony to create this wholly-owned digital delivery channel (I agree with Gutman's conclusion).

This may be a brilliant strategic manuśuvre, but it will have a cost associated with it (otherwise it wouldn't be a risk).

Businesses aren't interested in video-on-demand, they just want Office (or an equivalent) and perhaps some specific software to work. Microsoft could lose a chunk of business and government customers to Linux (they already are in Brazil, for example), who can get by perfectly well with OpenOffice on a Linux distro. They might also lose home customers to Apple (who seem to have a fanatical fanbase that enjoy their monopolistic leanings).

It's just possible that some forward-thinking game developers might start hedging their bets and bringing out games that can be run on Mac (and hence Linux) ... especially if the Linux PS3 market explodes (that would be bedroom coders to begin with, following in the footsteps of Romero's id Software and 3dRealms (formerly Apogee), for example).

The trigger, as I see it, is that the Vista DRM is so onerous that "ordinary" people will not let Microsoft foist it on them; much as multi-region DVD players are popular.

What would prompt game developers to start producing games for Linux or Macs en masse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Mac or Linux game console? :rolleyes:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If people are using Linux on a PS3, they must be using OpenGL, mustn't they?

#70
mkreku

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The Playstation 3 unfortunately does not allow secondary OS's to interact directly with its GPU. The Playstation 3 itself uses some kind of custom libraries (PSGL) for rendering, which is based on OpenGL ES 1.0 and some Nvidia shader libraries combined.

#71
Dark Moth

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Proof that Windows Vista did NOT copy off of Mac OS X!

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=

#72
karka

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The real proof:



#73
Dark Moth

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Yeah, I saw that. He uses 3 examples (compared with what, 6 in the other video?) The Longhorn screen shot showed no gadgets. As for time machine, such an ability was already available in previous Mac systems, but the Time Machine reworked it and made it easier. Copying a basic concept is one thing, but Microsoft made things that were virtual duplicates of the examples shown in OS X! He also conveniently ignores the fact that Apple has a lot shorter of an release cycle than Microsoft.

Edited by Dark Moth, 23 January 2007 - 05:50 PM.


#74
alanschu

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Oh god please don't tell me you are Psychomoth....

#75
Kaftan Barlast

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We tried to watch a DivX film on a friends computer the other day and Vista made it all pixelated, like a VGA-effect. My friend claimed it was due to the ATI drivers but I havent seen anything like it before, and Vista has an image-degradation as part of its many DRM schemes

#76
Surreptishus

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We tried to watch a DivX film on a friends computer the other day and Vista made it all pixelated, like a VGA-effect. My friend claimed it was due to the ATI drivers but I havent seen anything like it before, and Vista has an image-degradation as part of its many DRM schemes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I thought the degradation thing was only with HDCP content. The pixellation you experienced could be a number of reasons other than the stupid new anti piracy measures.

Edited by Surreptishus, 24 January 2007 - 01:39 PM.


#77
Bokishi

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LOL gaming is more like 70% slower currently.

#78
Dark_Raven

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LOL gaming is more like 70% slower currently.

LOLZ. That's a sure way to get people to upgrade.

#79
Sand

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I have had no significant slowdowns.

#80
Surreptishus

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I have had no significant slowdowns.


What slowdowns have you had then?

In fact where's your review?




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