The Top 100 Games of the 21st Century

[Meshugger]

Here we go again:

 

Gromnir - "JE didn't do as good as the Bioware hoped for, i got proof from the horses mouth. HA! GOOD FUN!"

 

Volourn - "That's bullcrap, why is MS supporting development for JE2? JE wasn't a failure! LOLLLLLERZ! game over."

 

Hades - "JE was pretty crap, but i bought the collectors edition."

 

70% of the forum: - "I agree with Gromnir"

25% of the forum: - "I agree with Volourn"

5% of the forum: - "I WANT KOTOR III!!!"

 

Epiphany - "Xbox360 will own the PS3"

[taks]

i do believe alanschu warned everyone...

 

taks

[Gromnir]

vis eventually claims that all bio games is crap, but he is such a game junky that he can't help himself when opportunity to buy game presents self. honestly, vis probably didn't likes je all that much, but just as some folks can't help but buy a game on day 1 o' release, vis cannot help but buy games... period.

 

vis is a glutton... and more than a little wacky.

 

vol is just plain wacky.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nartwak]

You're either giving Volourn too much credit or the rest of us not enough, Meshugger.

[Meshugger]

You're either giving Volourn too much credit or the rest of us not enough, Meshugger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No matter, threads like these are still the most interesting

[Gromnir]

i do believe alanschu warned everyone...

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HA!

 

one does wonder what it would take for vol to admit that je were not the seller that the developer and publisher hoped for... short of an admission from the publisher or developer?

 

am recalling how for years we had fergie trying to play edward norton's "illusionist" role every time the question of bg:da or ps:t sales were broached. were kinda commical to watch. heck, who would honestly expect a publisher or developer to admit that a game did not come anywhere near sales projections?

 

again, Gromnir's concern is that the biowarians is as deluded as is vol... that they might actually believe their own fables and bedtime stories 'bout je success. they has become less and less willing to takes criticism over the past couple years and we fears that they may have reached that point where they no longer believes they need take constructive criticism. sure, they still cruise the boards for opinions 'bout content, but they does seem to be less likely to question basic assumptions 'bout game design.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

You're either giving Volourn too much credit or the rest of us not enough, Meshugger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

there IS a somewhat curious anti-bio bias element on these boards. some people ain't agreeing with Gromnir or disagreeing with vol... they just thinks that bio sux. am thinking that Gromnir and vol both lose some % to that crowd.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

Here we go again:

 

Gromnir - "JE didn't do as good as the Bioware hoped for, i got proof from the horses mouth. HA! GOOD FUN!"

 

Volourn - "That's bullcrap, why is MS supporting development for JE2? JE wasn't a failure! LOLLLLLERZ! game over."

 

Hades - "JE was pretty crap, but i bought the collectors edition."

 

70% of the forum: - "I agree with Gromnir"

25% of the forum: - "I agree with Volourn"

5% of the forum: - "I WANT KOTOR III!!!"

 

Epiphany - "Xbox360 will own the PS3 They're bringing DX10 to the 360. This is not up for disagreement"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fixed :D

[Nartwak]

True Gromnir, and additional people wouldn't care about this issue, and whatnot. What I was trying to convey was that I have philosophical issues with the concept of people agreeing with Volourn.

[alanschu]

one does wonder what it would take for vol to admit that je were not the seller that the developer and publisher hoped for... short of an admission from the publisher or developer?

 

I don't think even that would change his mind.

 

 

Why do you have the impression that Bioware is unwilling to accept criticism? I haven't really frequented the BioBoards for quite some time, so I'm a bit curious about that.

[Meshugger]

True Gromnir, and additional people wouldn't care about this issue, and whatnot. What I was trying to convey was that I have philosophical issues with the concept of people agreeing with Volourn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Silent minority....

[Gromnir]

one does wonder what it would take for vol to admit that je were not the seller that the developer and publisher hoped for... short of an admission from the publisher or developer?

 

I don't think even that would change his mind.

 

 

Why do you have the impression that Bioware is unwilling to accept criticism? I haven't really frequented the BioBoards for quite some time, so I'm a bit curious about that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

there has always been some crazies who post at the bio boards. bio is successful, so they get lots of fans and some % just gotta be a little kooky, no? also, the biowarians actually interact with posters to a much greater degree than does other developers, so those folks who is simply posting to gets attention tends to find their way to bio boards. is understandable that the biowarians coulds frequently get frustrated by seemingly ridiculous suggestions or nutty posters.

 

...

 

even so, we started to see a much higher % of threads getting locked seemingly for no other reason than 'cause a poster were disagreeing with a biowarian. recall krazy? he were an unmitigated arse... but sometimes he managed to have a good idea. the old bioware attitude were such that they considered krazy suggestions even though they knew that 90% of his suggestions were simply flame bait. heck, there is a clown named geo over at the bio boards that we disagrees with most times, but occasionally he manages to makes a point... gotta happen eventually, no? the thing is that whereas in the past the biowarians were willing to wade through the nonsense to get at those rare nuggets, now they simply ignore some folks or some topics. sure, the biowarians may post responses, but they don't really seem to take suggestions as serious as they once did.

 

again, is not simply that some posters is dismissed, but some topics is as well. yeah, after almost a decade of board rehashing of some topics we imagine that some o' the love has gone outta bio's relationship with their boards. seems like the same/different folks is making same arguments we were seeing in late 90s. biowarians may be bored, but they seems to have given up on some topics regarding quest design and storytelling and any number o' other aspects o' game design.

 

oh, and 'cause we has mentioned je... just try to mention je sales in a bio board thread. gets locked faster than pr0n. once it were that as long as you were following rules and on-topic, pretty much anything were fair game at bio boards. sargy and some other jokers never could figure that out, but it were true. is reason Gromnir almost never got locked even when we were being adversarial.

 

bio boards has changed. is still better than any other developer boards, but still we sees that the biowarians seem to Know, where as before they were trying to Learn.

 

oh, and we can understand the gut-level urge to disagree with vol simply 'cause he is vol, but that is bad reason, even if it is statistically practical.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

I think they might get some of their feedback via focus groups now (even as far as bringing people to Bioware offices), as IMO the Bioware boards became pretty dominated by either the fanboy (whom typically has nothing of substance to contribute) or the hater (whom typically has nothing of substance to contribute).

 

I left the Bioware boards mostly (outside of the fact that they currently aren't making a game I'm interested in) because the threads were either all fanboy nonsense, or some guy would come in, post something critical, and the fanboys would jump all over him with the thread being utter chaos.

 

After seeing this thread alone (and the numerous other JE units sold threads), it's not surprising that Bioware would instantly shut down any thread regarding the topic. Not much use seems to come out of them. You'll get the fanboys arguing that it sold well, and the haters saying it was a disappointment. Bioware knows what the sales mean to Bioware, and if the game wasn't up to expectations sales wise, I would be surprised if they didn't stop to analyze why. They may have grown complacent because of previous success, but the only way I could see Bioware getting stuck in believing their own lies is if they actually did feel that Jade Empire sold well (paradox alert!). There may have been some rationalizations and whatnot, but given how big the company is now, the law of averages suggests that there's at least some people in positions of influence/power that recognized that they were making rationalizations.

 

Yeah, it may have been good for a new IP, but that doesn't mean it's good enough for them. Perhaps they seek to rectify the situation with Mass Effect.

[Dark_Raven]

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=c...=1&limitstart=0

 

 

An interesting list with a variety of games. Probably not the most accurate in terms of sales (seems all the game got lowballed in terms of sales). It is also US based as well so that lowers # of sales too.

 

BIS had one game in IWD on it. I wonder if the FOs or PST would have made the cut in the 90s....

 

BIO had BG, KOTOR, and NWN in that order. BG1 didn't make the cut, I presume, because it was released in the 90s....

 

There's a console list too, and one of the best games ever in MVP Baseball 2005 also made the list!!

 

WOO HOO!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No Fallouts or BG1? Lame.

 

At least IWD, BG2 Kotor and NWN made the deans list.

[Dark_Raven]

vis eventually claims that all bio games is crap, but he is such a game junky that he can't help himself when opportunity to buy game presents self.  honestly, vis probably didn't likes je all that much, but just as some folks can't help but buy a game on day 1 o' release, vis cannot help but buy games... period. 

 

vis is a glutton... and more than a little wacky.

 

vol is just plain wacky.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes they are confused.

 

[alanschu]

No Fallouts or BG1? Lame.

 

Given it's a list of games since the year 2000, is that really that surprising?

 

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Fallout didn't make the list either.

[Dark_Raven]

No Fallouts or BG1? Lame.

 

Given it's a list of games since the year 2000, is that really that surprising?

 

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Fallout didn't make the list either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How time flies. Fallout 2 was released in 98. :">

[Gromnir]

"After seeing this thread alone (and the numerous other JE units sold threads), it's not surprising that Bioware would instantly shut down any thread regarding the topic. Not much use seems to come out of them."

 

oh sure, is no question that je threads that somehow gets side-tracked onto sales becomes pretty darn useless, but if uselessness were the prime requisite for thread life at bio, they woulds needs a team of 12 mods working 24/7 to clean up the mess o' pointless topics and posts.

 

there is some truth to the suggestion that the boards is so polarized that finding useful criticism and intriguing new ideas is not likely, but that has always been the case. truth to tell, the most annoying portion of the bio boards is the nwn2 boards in which you gots the bis/obsidian developers doing the interacting with fans, so take that for what it is worth.

 

dunno... Gromnir has been following the boards for a long time now and we cannot help but feels that there has been a shift in the developer attitude. once were that you could banter back n' forth with rob or bob or dave or drew or any number o' other guys and you would gets useful feedback and you could see that the developers seriously considered your ideas... but now?

 

perhaps bio hired too many jackarses who once were bio fans. one would think that such guys would be the best folks to be interacting with on boards, but the reverse seems to be true. maybe Gromnir is right and biowarians is certain in their choices and not so much bother with fan input. maybe Gromnir is seeing some flaw that just ain't there. maybe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dark_Raven]

perhaps bio hired too many jackarses who once were bio fans.  one would think that such guys would be the best folks to be interacting with on boards, but the reverse seems to be true.  maybe Gromnir is right and biowarians is certain in their choices and not so much bother with fan input.  maybe Gromnir is seeing some flaw that just ain't there.  maybe. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They didn't hire Volo.

[alanschu]

dunno... Gromnir has been following the boards for a long time now and we cannot help but feels that there has been a shift in the developer attitude. once were that you could banter back n' forth with rob or bob or dave or drew or any number o' other guys and you would gets useful feedback and you could see that the developers seriously considered your ideas... but now?

 

If you'd like, I could ask Rob. Though I probably won't see him for a week or so.

[Volourn]

"also, while Gromnir has never claimed that je bombed, microsoft obviously already has for all practical purposes announced that je sales were underwhelming, or they woulda' pushed to gets a sequel or expansion released."

 

That's funny you mention this. MS announced JE2 not longer after JE was released. Go figure.

 

BIO, on the other hand, has denied working on it. Of course, there's the existence of JE2 on PC. If JE's performance was sooooooooooo dissapointing to BIO why would they waste their time on a port?

 

L0LLERZ!

 

 

"They didn't hire Volo."

 

BIO barely tolerates me. I seriously doubt they'd hire me unless I could guarnatee them billions of dollars which I can't.

 

 

"Hades - "JE was pretty crap, but i bought the collectors edition."

 

Actually, Hades has been forthright about liking JE a lot. Not as much as BG, FO, or PST; but a lot nontheless.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Volourn

[Judge Hades]

Hades - "JE was pretty crap, but i bought the collectors edition."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When did I ever said JE was crap? Show me, Meshugger, otherwise don't attribute quotes to me unless they are actually real quotes that you can link to.

[Tigranes]

So... is it crap?

[Gromnir]

"If JE's performance was sooooooooooo dissapointing to BIO why would they waste their time on a port?"

 

'cause they already did the work... is kinda like releasing a movie on dvd. the development costs has already been spent.

 

also, as you noted, the je2 bit sounds like nothing, don't it? bio ain't working on it and there ain't no expansion. bio claims to have ip rights to je so unless bio is working on it...

 

regardless, vol will believe what he wishes to... no matter how he is shown to be wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"also, as you noted, the je2 bit sounds like nothing, don't it? bio ain't working on it and there ain't no expansion. bio claims to have ip rights to je so unless bio is working on it..."

 

BIO also denied the existence of JE PC. And, look at that? JE PC exists!!!! WOWSERS!!!!

 

However, as per usual, you ignored the main point.

 

 

You wrote: "microsoft obviously already has for all practical purposes announced that je sales were underwhelming, or they woulda' pushed to gets a sequel or expansion released."

 

In response, I wrote: "MS announced JE2 not longer after JE was released."

 

Game over.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Volourn