Rome: Total Realism

[Musopticon?]

 

 

 

 

Yeah. Just not phalanxes.

[alanschu]

Ahahahahahaha.

 

I just had a wierd bug with a siege Tower where guys would get stuck at the bottom and just run around (getting shot by arrows). I was able to work around it by setting their move target the ground, followed quickly by the wall, as this would allow a few extra people in the tower. However, at one point the tower had opened up top, and for some messed up reason, they all went running off the side of the wall killing themselves. I reacted in time to save 9 of them (who fortunately opened the Gatehouse), but it looked very interesting seeing a troop of 80 men go running off the side of the wall and kill themselves.

[Musopticon?]

That's why I use cheap sword mercs to storm the walls. Or hypaspistai/gaesatae/bastarnae after a decoy.

[alanschu]

Unfortunately all I had was legionaries. Which isn't really that bad of a problem

 

In other news, I was able to take Carthago by surprise. I happened to have a spy inside, and his 40% chance to open the gate paid off. Clearly Carthage wasn't expecting this, as all he had was a garrison of 80 Sacred Band Spearmen. As a result, I was able to take Carthage the same season I got there. A crushing blow to the Republic of Carthage no doubt!

[Musopticon?]

Did those sacred men have upgraded weapons and two bronze chevrons of experience? If so, then they are always there, like Gauls always have a unit of experienced chosen spearmen in Alesia.

 

For the record, playing as Vandals and...vandalising Italy is so much fun. And hard, post-Constantinean Roman troops are hard buggers. No matter, they are all arrowfodder for my lords of the steppe.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Musopticon?

[alanschu]

My Legionaries seem to do quite well against arrows (which makes up for the fact that RTR removed the testudo formation). There are some heavily armed guys that I fight that almost seem impervious if I don't get the missiles at their flanks.

 

One group is the Hypstaiasti (or whatever) guys that the Macedonians seem to have. They just sit there and take it while I shoot arrows.

 

 

Would you say BI is worth $50 (as I'd have to get the box set to play it).

[Musopticon?]

I can't say about the Gold Editon(I had to buy it too) yet since I've just started my first game. On the other hand, RTR 7.0 is coming for 1.6 and that's strictly BI.

 

Hypaspistai("shield-bearers") are the elite of Macedon and Successors(Ptolemaics, Seleucids and Bactria) and it shows. Huge armor, gigantic attack rate and two hitpoints, plus they run fast and tire slowly. Pretty much the only good way to take them down is a ton of pila and/or arrows at their back and then pinning them down with heavy infantry and several cavalry charges to their flank. You can't really route them, but they will die eventually.

 

Since you are Rome, killing them shouldn't be that hard, compared to some factions that don't have so versatile units. Legionaries are heavy infantry and ranged units in one package. And their defense is ginormous.

 

Just imagine what kind of pain in the ass is killing them as something like Pontus or Armenia, who don't have heavy enough infantry and must field specialised ranged units to deal with them or take lost of losses.

[alanschu]

My Legionaries do okay against them, mostly I think due to the numerical advantage. They also have solid armor (like 36 or something base). I'm also a newb and play on Normal/Normal....something I will likely change in the future.

 

The game has gotten kind of easy, as I was able to get Marius quite early. I'm not sure if maybe I'm just better, or the legionaries are just powerful (for the most part I use Principes pre-Marius, which are similar enough to the Legionaries).

 

Legionaries make up the overwhelming bulk of my military (Gallic warbands for garrisons, as they have cheap support costs and a large number). They seem to be able to go toe-to-toe with almost anyone, and as long as they aren't surrounded and flanked, tend to win most of the time.

 

I have noticed that the odd time I have picked up mercenaries (simply because I had concerns about numbers I was about to face), they absolutely do not last as long as the Legionaries. I bought some of the armorless, 120 stack German mercenaries because they were cheap and had large numbers, and some Javelineers did quite a number on it. As a counterpoint, the armorless barbarians are cannon fodder for my Sarmatian Archers (I also have a general in Macedonia who has Cretian archers, which seem to kick ass as well...except against special forces shock troops).

 

I picked up two 80 stacks of Sarmatian archers, as well as some Horse Archers (OMG how I loved these in Medieval...and I do now!). Horse Archers are sweet, as they can shoot while moving, are too fast to be caught, and have way, way, way more ammo than a javelineer. Though speaking of Javelineers, I did pick up some Numidian Cavalry in my attack against Carthage. I moved in with a full stack of a General with 1 Roman Cavalry unit, and the rest Legionaries (with some reinforcements en route). After taking Carthage, I moved over to Ucidia and quickly captured it as troop sallied forth as reinforcements to a huge counter attack. I left behind 5 full stacks of Legionaries in Carthage, and they just got besieged by a HUUUGE stack. I'm hoping I can take advantage of the Large Stone Walls, and prevent them from breaking though and getting some free kills from the towers.

 

After taking Ucidia, I noticed another huge stack en route. Nearby, there was a medium sized stack, that also had two Elephant units. Since I hate elephants as I'm always terrified they'll run amok, I picked up the Numidian Cavalry, as well as some Rhodian slingers. The job of the Cavalry was specifically to take care of one of the elephant groups, and they did just that. I even got lucky and the last one ran amok through the Carthaginian troops, resulting in some extra kills.

 

I then slowly moved up, making sure to save my pila for the undoubted charge of the other elephant group. After advancing my wall of legionaries, the elephants started rushing. 4 or 5 squads started tossing their pila. I was able to get away with few casualties, though I couldn't get it to rout until it was too close. Two groups ended up losing about 20 soldiers each as the two remaining elephants went blasting through. I think proceeded to slaughter the weak Berber Javelinmen. The Rhodians had fun with them as the Berber's might as well be naked.

 

Good times good times.

 

 

I'm up to 55 provinces now, so I just need to collect on the ones that I need for my victory conditions (which I'm still a ways away from). Byzantium is about to fall, but I'm still a ways away from all the Middle East. Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem are still a looong ways away, as is Sinope.

 

On the plus side, I'm starting to really pull in the money. So I have hired some diplomats to see if I can't make life a little easier on myself by paying off some cities/armies. Here's hoping I can steal a general or two! Speaking of generals, I have recently been getting a lot of adoption proposals (not that I mind). I hardly ever say no to the free, unexpected general. I have placed some of them in the small Gaul towns, so that they can take advantage of any enslavements I do. They also act as Governor's of my newly captured area in Greece/Macedonia. I'm hoping I can get some children spread from them to other towns, so I don't just feed them all from Italy.

 

I have 4 really sweet generals (as well as my pet project general). With the bonuses to Barbarians, two can get to 10 stars pretty easily. They just finished off Germania and are cleaning up on the Rebels in the area. I will probably land one of them in Britain as well, though the navy pirates in the area are quite a pain! But I like to conquer conquer conquer. I'm aiming for a bit of a TC Sweden and Norway will also get an axe soon too. These places do have fishing villages, so they'll eventually get ports for more money making goodness as well (though capturing Sicily was insane, as they all had at least a Shipwright. Carthage is raking in huge dough as well!)

 

I'm about ready to start a big push east, that will have me swallowing up the Illyrian Rebels, as well as Thrace (who is actually an ally at the moment) with Macedonia. My fleet in the Aegian Sea is getting quite large, so I may cross over into Turkey. Not sure if I'm ready to take on the Seleucids at the moment though. I'm sure they'll enjoy meeting my Legionaries!

Edited August 24, 2006 by alanschu

[Musopticon?]

A couple of things:

 

Those germanic warbands(framea germani? aujo wrackjoz?) are superior light infantry thanks to those javelins and fast movement. They can anything from stopping a cavalry charge with their javelins and then killing the bogged down horsemen to taking a stand in the battleline(well, not always a line but it's a general catch phrase for all formations) and running down routers. I like them, 120 men in a unit means that they can take a ton of casultaties before going down, plus around 40 guys always "rise from the dead"(this models wounded and unconscious men) after battle. Lovely guys.

 

Try to keep your missile units on the side of the enemy that doesn't have a shield. A lot of people don't know this, but the shields are real entities on the battlefield and the unprotected weapon side takes a whole lot more casultaties. In retrospect, attack the other side with cavalry, since a shield can't protect against massed horse and men, while a weapon and impale and bludgeon. Fairly logical and often ignored. Of course, the best thing is to get units behind the enemy but that ususally only works with a cavalry heavy army where you can reatreat and make decoy attacks fast, and most enemy units will attack any unit that tries to get to their back, but not when they are pinned down by your infantry first. You could try the manipular formation too, it's in Platinum.

 

Get Rhodes, 40% increase in naval trade and some of the best naval trade earners nearby(e.g Pergamon) can easily finance a couple of armies. Especially in late game.

Heh, some folks consider getting the island and it's bonus so cheesy that it's labeled as RTW-godmode by purists. :D

 

Hey, it's great that you used numidian cavalry to take down the elephants. They are like the ultimate ellie killer. Too bad about the natural fear thing. You can't really use them in Arabia and Levant, since almost every army has both elephants and camels and horses are scared crapless. An alternative and cheaper way is to hire peltastai or javelineers, with the bonus against elephants and chariots-trait. Not all skirmishers have that. Then just set those guys into loose formation, set skirmish mode off so that they don't run and attack elephants with them. Thanks to the bonus, they can take down the elephants even in close combat and because they are spread out and because a single elephan only attacks one foot unit at time after the initial charge(that's wasted on spread out units) the skirmishers take ages to kill and they also don't die under the dying elephants since they are so far apart. Ellies don't stand a change.

 

Sarmatian cavalry is the best in the game. Try to reach their area of recruitment quick for some amazing cavalry.

[Tigranes]

Hypaspistai were grossly overpowered at one stage, but even if they are not anymore they would be a fearsome opponent. Traditionally, if you have legionaries powerful enough to pin them down you can make multiple charges into their rear with heavy cavalry; lighter cavalry, or heavier ones getting bogged in results in huge casualties, especially for your super-expensive horsies.

 

As for mercenaries, Cretan Archers are a perennial favourite, of course, but it's also nice to hire some light cavalry or horse archers, as well as some 'barbarian' infantry for gruntwork and doing high-casualty work.

 

The only real way to avoid casualties with elephants is to assign two javelin / horse archer units per elephant unit, making them turn one way then the other and spraying in the rear. It usually takes a lot of space and refuses interference from other units, however, so I often find it's better to lure the elephants away from the mainf ray with a single javelin/peltast unit and suck up the casualties. Nothing's worse than fleeing / rampant elephants running away through your battle-line.

 

With adoption: RTW engine balances out birthrates so you have roughly 1 general per city. When you get big, you will naturally not have as many - and you will begin to get a lot of adoption proposals. Personally, for the sake of historical narrative I like keeping a very small family with very few adoptions, placing family members in central cities and occasionally rotating them (sticking a family member as governor in one city for 30 years can often result in unsavoury corruption)

[Musopticon?]

Agree with Tigranes' all points. I just don't care about casultaties so much. I used to be real sucker for "perfect armies", with full unit amounts and identical formations. Nowadays, unorthodox tactics and crackshot armies are much more fun.

 

Yeah, by the way; the corruption treshold for in RTW is around 20 000 denarii earned per turn. After that you start to get nasty traits. And after you get to 50 000 denarii per turn, all your governors start to turn to blithering idiots and drooling mad gamblers. It's worthwhile to save mad general though, just to hear the funny pre-battle speeches("They stole all my bees!". Same goes for coward-traits(Try to kill something with your general unit in every battle to avoid being labeled a coward).

 

Yeah, and it's generally a good idea to not build temples to gods like Bacchus and Dionysius, since those can give you drinking traits. First drinking traits are positive, like Social Drinker or Occasional Drinker/Likes a Drink, since they give influence or/and morale, but once you start to get drunk-traits they can be real annoying. This is why you shouldn't build taverns either. It's a good idea to give your governors something to do every year, preferably outside the city, so they don't accrue corruption triats quite so fast. Generals that are on the road all the time usually don't have time for vices, so don't mind them. Bloodlust can lead to madness and nasty traits though and it's a pet peeve of mine if I get the Butcher-traits.

 

It's worse in Barbarian Invasion, since the corruption treshold is somcehting like 7000 for barbarians and 15000 for civilised factions. of course Romans have a lot more changes to get piss drunk and mess around with cults, so the higher treshold generally doesn't help that much.

 

Ah, I love these games.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Musopticon?

[Rosbjerg]

I just hate the fact that Barbarians rise from the rubble with 3-5 pretty decent armies .. they can really cause havok! <_< But it's a challenge and that is a good thing..

 

I'm big fan of this game, so this thread is really interesting.. I've never played many Mods though (except for Total Realism which Mus? suggested once) .. are there any new ones out there, which spice things up?

should just mention that my biggest beef with TR was the unbalance of the Mod, I would usually be either too powerful or too weak.. (can't remember which factions were which though).. so I would really love a realistic, balanced and fun mod to play .. no matter the content..

 

Hope you can help!

[alanschu]

I haven't really had a problem with corruption...yet. Though my income is about 25k denarii at the moment.

 

Oh, don't worry, I'm well aware of the directional nature of shields, and the Hypaspistai always get attacked from behind.

 

I usually don't have much in the way of Cavalry (I'm a cheap bastard), but I usually make sure to get some troops attacking at least the side flanks, if not the rear. It's necessary against things like phalanxes. You use one legionary group to keep their phalanxes pointed in one direction. If they are using the sarissa, it's really hard to close the distance and attack, but if I can get some guys in on the side, I beat them up with sword to sword combat.

 

Though it is mighty fun blasting through the flanks of a group in combat with cavalry and watching bodies fly. It typically use my General's unit though, as they have more HP and when they die, I'll eventually get free replacements anyways.

 

 

Which Sarmatian Cavalry were you talking about? I was able to buy some Sarmatian Archer Cavalry, and they kick ass!

 

If found the Framea Germani units fine as well. The large stack is nice, and I like melee units that have the few missile weapons before charging. I was just so used to my legionaries that I was surprised how quickly the Germani units were getting killed relatively speaking. More a compliment to the awesomeness of the legionaries

[Xard]

I believe Mus? ment Sarmatian Heavy Cavalry (I am pretty sure that it is the name), which indeed is best cavalry in the game.

 

In Vanilla, what do you people think as best infantry unit? I simply love Praetorian (well those elite legionaries whatever they were) Cohorts with fully upgraded armor and weapons. With experience, they become perfect unit for walls in sieges. Well, they are good at anything IMO

 

Mus: You have any ideas for good BI mods?

[Tigranes]

I got really really sick of BI, actually. I end up trying to make sure NO faction gets destroyed, because Hordes are extremely easy to kill but there are so many of them, and they run about at random meaning you have to be the one chasing them down. That, and I hate fighting horse archers that run arond the map for 10 minutes.

 

Another horrible thing is that every single barbarian faction, or at least their hordes, are nearly exactly the same. The game devolves into fight Horde A, then Horde A, then Horde A.

 

Wait until you see the Seleucid Kataphractoi mowing everything down. That is one of the true joys.

[Calax]

I got really really sick of BI, actually. I end up trying to make sure NO faction gets destroyed, because Hordes are extremely easy to kill but there are so many of them, and they run about at random meaning you have to be the one chasing them down. That, and I hate fighting horse archers that run arond the map for 10 minutes.

 

Another horrible thing is that every single barbarian faction, or at least their hordes, are nearly exactly the same. The game devolves into fight Horde A, then Horde A, then Horde A.

 

Wait until you see the Seleucid Kataphractoi mowing everything down. That is one of the true joys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it's REALLY pathetic when you play a greek state and attack a group of 20 archers and spend the entire battle chasing them down.

[alanschu]

I typically make sure I come at them from all sides. I also try to have a cavalry unit as well. Though this doesn't help a whole lot with the horse archers :\

[Musopticon?]

This thread is the

 

Well, suposedly you can recruit unique Roman Sarmatian Cavalry if you have access to Sarmatian AOR after Marian Reforms. Same goes for Syrian Archers, which are only recruitable after Marian Reforms.

 

I like it more in EB, since in there you get Roman-influenced units like armored peltastai or silvershield thorakitai, not straight imitation legionnaires as in RTR. And the unit advances aren't all tied to Roman reforms. Although especially Gauls(Arverni and Aedui) get their most advanced units after the reform of 209. Arverni Arjos look almost medieval and neitos are very Roman. Same goes for the African Elite Units that Carthage get, everything starts to adapt to Roman way of fighting from their native styles, nice though.

 

Anyway, Xard, best BI mods are probably Flagellum Dei, Imperium Julianorum(It's a sister mod to Goth's All faction mod, which I'm playing), but you got to note that I've played BI for only four days. :D And I haven't tried any of the fantasy mod betas yet, since I want to play real BI for a while.

 

Rosbjerg, there's this mod called Res Getae which, along with Terra Expugnandae and SPQR-mod focus into making the gameplay enjoyable, fast-paced and balanced. Historicality is not idea here, so there's ample of vanilla units, like wardogs and non-archer cataphracts, but they are very balanced. Refer to my huge mod post that I posted when meta asked to list my top 10. I think it was on the "What are you playing now?"-thread.

 

About BI in general, the legionnaires are super effective, my Gothic(ah, so many possible puns) spearmen are simply cannon fodder to supplement a battleline of Gothic warriors, which I don't yet get since I haven't settled anywhere, but I have to use those spearmen to fight Roman troops and it's suprisingly hard. Often I'm the attacker and thanks to BI AI(and the mods' improved formations and battle AI) the battles always start with me on the bottom of some hills that happen to be crowding with Roman Auxilia Palatinae from Legio IX Dalmatiae or something equally elite. It's also a real moodriser to see the units that Romans have merged into their army corps to counter native units, like clibinarii, that are in effect Roman cataphracts or Roman-led barbarian troops that are supplied to fight cavalry archers. And let's not even go to Roman hippotoxotai, they are a real pain in the ass. Anyways, it's a real pleasure to face some good opposition. Of course, if I had phalanxes, none of those could do a whole lot.

 

I just wish that there wasn't those ginourmous epic walls that shoot ballista bolts. Same goes for the upgraded siege towers that do the same, really the easiest tactic to win a siege is to take a million thousand siege towers with you and let them shoot everything down on the walls. Suffice to say that I begun to hate seiges pretty quickly and never let the towers fire, unless I'm in really tigh spot. The constant battering of huge ballista bolts look damn funny though.

 

About phalanxes and persistant archers, best tactic I've found is to just let the archers exhaust their arrows into your shields by turning your facing into them. They'll either charge and die a horrible impaled death afterwards or withdraw from the battle and then you can just attack them again and if they are the only unit on the enemy army, autofight. The game doesn't take missiles into account, it just adds and detracts attack and defence values from the opposing armies and makes a rough eximation of how the battle would go. Really annoying, since you can kill millions of units just by taking a whole load of scythed chariots(they have like 54 attack) and autofighting. In counterpoint, it's really funny to win against 5 to 1 odds if you are playing as a nation that uses primarily cavalry, since the game is so biased against melee-on-shield action. Fighting and winning against so huge odds gives you great stats too.

[alanschu]

Well, my expansion in Carthage continues, though a bit slowly as I wait for Reinforcements.

 

My 0 star general that hated Carthaginians is now a 4 star general, that also gets an addition +1 against Numidian and Carthaginian troops. So given the area he's in...he's a 5 star general, and frequently a 6 (since he loathes carthaginians already). I had to load up a hotfix for siege towers....as the guys in the bottom would do a dance and all in all my siege defenses rather boring.

 

After weathering a plague in Rome, I sent out a young general with loads of fully upgraded legionaries. Their goal is to take out the Iberians. Turns out they had a feeling something was amiss, as they tried sieging one of my places. Fortunately my full stack of legionaries (with the general and a single unit of Roman Cavalry) were able to siege Orca the same turn. He tried counter attacking with a large stack but lost, so he had to pull of his siege to try (fruitlessly) to save Orca. I demolished both armies!

 

So with a net gain of about 2000 soldiers after the two huge fights, I think the Iberian Penninsula shouldn't be too hard to take.

 

I have also taken Denmark/Sweden (apparently they are just one province), and figured I'd take the rest of Scandinavia. A large stack inside the town there, but my siege has brought their 120 stacks down to 83, so that should make the numbers more in my favour.

 

I also took out a large force in Britannia Superior, and am sieging one of their towns. I see the adjacent one also has a mine (as well as a shipwright!), so it looks like it will be profitable as well. And I'm not going to need to build a big wall to protect myself from the Saxons either :D

 

The war against Macedonia goes well. I have pushed them into the Black Sea, and it looks like they only have a single province left. Turns out they had split Thrace in two, so I'm between two of their provinces now. I cancelled the alliance against them, and am hoping I can do some bribing in the area. The people of Macedon will soon be fully a part of the Roman Empire soon.

 

I also took a general and a full stack of legionaries onto Crete. The two cities there are Rebel from when the Greek Cities were killed. They have some large stacks, consisting of hoplites and peltastati. I besieged one of their towns, and expect a counter attack in the coming months.

 

I also found out that Elephants really are battering rams. During a siege from Carthage, it started running into the door and did damage. Fortunately it didn't survive the hot oil being splashed on it...but I was very confused to see that. Did not expect it at all.

[Tigranes]

The problem with RTW Sieges, IMO, is that navigation in streets, on walls, up/down towers and in gates are so damn cumbersome. If I put a unit up in a tower, or on the ground, I have to be prepared to let them stay up/down there for the entire battle, or risk losing them for 5 minutes while they trickle down/up the tower. Streets are horrible as well, although how you can't kill two fleeing peasants when the street is full of legionaries, I can't fathom.

 

Another mindboggling fight is the bridge fight. It's always fun launching onager blasts into the bridge itself, and watching dead bodies fall off... then when they reach your end of the bridge they start running back, making others fall off in turn. This, I think, was vanilla RTW: I got REALLY sick of 10,000 Roman legionaries attacking me in the civil war, so...

 

 

What I love with family members is to 'groom' them. My RPG roots means I love constructing a mental narrative of the empire (with my good memory I end up remembering every ruler in my 200-year campaign and their deeds, anyway O_o), so if a 'gifted' youngster is born into the family I can have him defeat some easy rebels (do get unit xp and good traits), spend some time in the city with the best academy, and do retinue swaps. I always make sure that youngsters visit their older and dying relations and get the good retinues off them before they drop dead - before long I have a "King's Collection" of retinue, and then I can sometimes achieve Alexander-like Kings who ascend to the throne when they're 20, have 5-6 stars/scrolls/laurels and go on to dominate. :D

 

It's been a long time since I've played, however; I got into MTW just before RTW came out, so I had 1-2 years where I played a *lot*. I believe there was one game where I actually conquered every province as the Seleucids on RTR. The map that goes down to India. O_o

Edited August 26, 2006 by Tigranes

[alanschu]

I am in the process of a total conquest in my RTR game

 

I didn't know you could have retinue swaps. Interesting.

[Daaave]

This thread piqued my intereset in R:TW and after reading a couple of reviews I've decided to take the plunge and order it. The thing is, I've never played a strategy game before. So I was wondering if anyone could give me some general advice before I start the game so I wont be completely lost.

[Calax]

This thread piqued my intereset in R:TW and after reading a couple of reviews I've decided to take the plunge and order it. The thing is, I've never played a strategy game before. So I was wondering if anyone could give me some general advice before I start the game so I wont be completely lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

keep people happy and work on your infrastructure. With Rome when you fight on defense just stand there and let them come to you. by the time they reach you their troops will be fatigued and you will win easily. Make sure to keep yourself (at first at least) confined to ONE battle front so you don't get knifed in the back by an opponent while your main army is making a swing west.

[Enoch]

This thread piqued my intereset in R:TW and after reading a couple of reviews I've decided to take the plunge and order it. The thing is, I've never played a strategy game before. So I was wondering if anyone could give me some general advice before I start the game so I wont be completely lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

keep people happy and work on your infrastructure. With Rome when you fight on defense just stand there and let them come to you. by the time they reach you their troops will be fatigued and you will win easily. Make sure to keep yourself (at first at least) confined to ONE battle front so you don't get knifed in the back by an opponent while your main army is making a swing west.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good advice. On the infrastructure, I'll add that whenever one of your major cities grows to the point where a new level of improvements are available, the next level of farms and ports should be among your first priorities. For military buildings, prioritize the improvements that let you do something new entirely over those that just let you do stuff you could do before better. (e.g., as Rome, Principes actually aren't all that much tougher than Hastatii, but a 2nd-level stable gives you your first mounted skirmishers, which are very useful)

[alanschu]

To be honest, I find myself doing quite a bit better with Principes than with Hastatii.