Something for you to think about

[Musopticon?]

For the record(do we have a record?); I'm not pro-abortion because she is hideous, but because I can't really call the kind of existence she is going to lead when she gets older "living".

 

If I got bullied because my sister was a [backward-slow], I can't imagine what's going to happen to a girl with a deformed face. And living a sheltered life isn't really living either.

 

EDITs by Cantousent.

 

The removed word is peculiar in that it isn't a swear word and yet it's the word I've been asked to delete most often.

[Azarkon]

The best reasons for abortion, imo, are these two:

 

1. The controversy inherent in defining the time when life begins (ie at conception, at the point of brain development, or at birth).

 

2. To prevent the government from dictating people's moral outlooks.

 

If there was no controversy as to when life begins, then the abortion issue would be one-sided because it'd fall under either clipping a mass of flesh or murder. However, because such a controversy exists, the issue becomes a matter of morality - and laws should not be in place to dictate morality. Personally, I would never support abortion except in life-threatening situations; however, I would also not support the government taking away another person's right to choose his own moral priorities. This, I think, is the essence of the pro-choice argument (and not the "zomg I want the choice for women to have an abortion anytime they want cause I'm selfish and most definitely will use abortions in place of abstinence and contraception~" that the pro-life side keep trying to paint it as).

Edited August 5, 2006 by Azarkon

[x1Predator]

Im not a fan of abortion...but

[Calax]

Abortion should be made illegal.

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and people say MY sig is big.

[Krookie]

For the record(do we have a record?); I'm not pro-abortion because she is hideous, but because I can't really call the kind of existence she is going to lead when she gets older "living".

 

If I got bullied because my sister was a [backward-slow], I can't imagine what's going to happen to a girl with a deformed face. And living a sheltered life isn't really living either.

 

EDITs by Cantousent.

 

The removed word is peculiar in that it isn't a swear word and yet it's the word I've been asked to delete most often.

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I'd kick the crap out of someone who made fun of her.

 

Even Ah-nuld.

[Archmonarch]

Abortion should be made illegal.

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What the **** kind of Sith are you?

 

 

Also, I truly pity the girl and hope that everything that can be done for her is done. However, given that she is now alive, abortion seems something of a moot issue. Its not as if her parents will just mercy-kill her, though I do find their exploitation of their child on talkshows despicable.

 

I have some small idea (though nowhere nearl what she will face, unfortunately) of what its like to be discriminated against based on some physical defect. Nevertheless, I imagine her life must be fairly hellish. Unable to communicate with the world around her and, so far as I could tell from the images, only once functional eye, I dont see a great deal of happiness in her future. Poor kid.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Archmonarch

[WITHTEETH]

^pixies - We did. People say all kind of things when they are drunk.

 

Also, I agree with Eldar that we are entitled to our own opinion that whether a person is better off living or dying, but neither we nor the parents have the right to force that opinion on the individuals in question.

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Are you refering to the fetus as an individual? If so, do you also believe it has a "soul" too?

[alanschu]

Why would that matter?

[WITHTEETH]

Just curious whether someone thinks a soul enters a zygote at the moment of insemination. There is no proof of a soul emprically, and definitions very to high degrees since we cannot perceive souls, whether they exist or not.

 

Also to claim a fetus as an individual may be taking it too far. sure it might start to get basic living parts like the beggining of a nervous system, its just a basic life support system at that stage. The brain is underdeveloped thus so are the senses.

 

If the person was refering to the unborn as the individual then I take it that he/she must believe in apriori knowledge too since it is supposedly an individual and not even born yet. un-analytic apriori knowledge is most commonly attached to the soul.

[Cantousent]

My question still stands. Would you decide to abort a fetus because you thought your child would have a cleft lip?

 

The abortion debate is old. This thread provides nothing new to the discussion other than suggesting that abortion would be better than a faceless life. However, that still does little to deepen the moral dilemma. The parents didn't know she would be bereft of face.

[julianw]

Are you refering to the fetus as an individual? If so, do you also believe it has a "soul" too?

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The fetus is obviously not an individual but it does have the potential to be an individual. The potential of life is fully realized at the moment of conception, thus though the body has yet to develop, abortion is at least guilty of destroying the potential existence of a human being and personally I value that potential no less than my own potential existence in the future. Of couse, abortion is a more complicated issue since there are cases when the mother's life is also at stake or when it involves a rape.

 

As for whether the embryo has a soul, I don't have an opinion since I don't even have enough understanding of the soul to say that I believe in its existence.

[alanschu]

Is masterbation bad, as it wastes a whole lot of potential lives?

[Pidesco]

Are you refering to the fetus as an individual? If so, do you also believe it has a "soul" too?

The fetus is obviously not an individual but it does have the potential to be an individual. The potential of life is fully realized at the moment of conception, thus though the body has yet to develop, abortion is at least guilty of destroying the potential existence of a human being and personally I value that potential no less than my own potential existence in the future. Of couse, abortion is a more complicated issue since there are cases when the mother's life is also at stake or when it involves a rape.

 

As for whether the embryo has a soul, I don't have an opinion since I don't even have enough understanding of the soul to say that I believe in its existence.

 

I would like to point out that fetuses listen, feel and even partially understand most everything around them, including things that happen outside the womb, so in that sense they are as much individuals as you and I.

[alanschu]

How would they be able to understand anything?

[Pidesco]

They would be able to understand emotions, like for example if someone was angry next to the womb, the fetus would understand that person was angry and be affected by it.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Pidesco

[WinterSun]

That's why they kick their mothers. it's an outlet for their rage.

[alanschu]

They would be able to understand emotions, like for example if someone was angry next to the womb, the fetus would understand that person was angry and be affected by it.

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Is there any empirical evidence for this?

[Pidesco]

I believe it's all indirect evidence so far, but I could be wrong.

 

One example, would be a grown man who was afraid of his father who had, apparently, always been a good and understanding parent. Turns out that the father was under a lot stress and constantly throwing tantrums around the time the mother was pregnant.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Is there any empirical evidence for this?

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I think you know there isn't. :D

 

If the mother were aware of an angry and possibly dangerous person near her womb, that would presumably provoke stress and various chemical reactions in her body that might then affect the foetus. That is at least plausible, though again that's not the same as having empirical evidence of real effects.

[alanschu]

I can understand conditions arising beause of stress and whatnot to the mother.

 

But you can make similar findings with respect to disease. People that don't suffer from stress are physiologically more likely to deal with disease more efficiently.

 

I'm skeptical as to whether or not the fetus is "feeling," rather than just being affected by the physiology of the mother.

[Pidesco]

If it's just being affected by the mother's physiology, the brain of the fetus is still reacting in some way to the surroundings.

[Fenghuang]

http://somethingpositive.Cant's edit o' fun

[Darth Somethingorother]

If it's just being affected by the mother's physiology, the brain of the fetus is still reacting in some way to the surroundings.

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Not necessarily- hormone's secreted by the mother into her bloodstream would pass into the foetus along with oxygen and nutrient. So, if the mother was scared, for e.g., she would release adrenaline into her blood, and this would find its way into the foetus's cells, producing a similar reaction. The foetus' brain (such as it might be) has nothing to do with it.

[Atreides]

I think abortion's sad. Both for the parents that are in a situation where they feel they shouldn't have the child and for the lost potential of the child and the parents. Even for kids that aren't healthy or mentally developed, I think they realise that they're different but their family's (become?) big hearted enough to love them nonetheless. If anything, that's what they'll take to them to the grave, if they meet an early end.

 

I don't know if I'm a big enough man to handle such questions if such a situation arose for my kid. Where's the cutoff point for terminating pregnancies? Is there a cutoff point? I hope we'll never need to make that call.

 

One of the best parts of Drawn Together's when Captain Hero tells his parents when they make up that "Even if you aborted me I'm still your son".

[Blarghagh]

I believe abortions have to, by law, be performed before the second trimester begins, right?