Age of Decadence

[Jaesun]

Steam release confirmed!?

 

Vince actually discussed this. It's................. a very complicated thing (especially for an indie developer).

 

I know he want's too, and I'm pretty sure it will be available there.

[Purkake]

Steam release confirmed!?

 

Vince actually discussed this. It's................. a very complicated thing (especially for an indie developer).

 

I know he want's too, and I'm pretty sure it will be available there.

 

Where else would they sell it? On the site?

 

If they want to make ANY kind of money, they need to go digital delivery or go home.

[Gromnir]

aod is schrodinger's cat. some small number o' people will spend next year or two in ardent debate over the philosophical implications o' aod impact... or non-impact. 'course, at the end o' the day, regardless o' the debate, you still end up with a dead cat in a box. no 'mount o' gaming pretension is gonna be able to breathe life into the grisly gato. 'course, given two years o' emotional investment, some folks is gonna look at vinnie's mummified feline cadaver, and declare it "Teh Best Kat Evar!" folks with no emotional ties to aod is probable never gonna hear of the indie release o' a dated looking game with terrible qa, or they will be baffled by the fanatics who chose to deify a dead cat... in a box. please, think of the cat. take multi-years and uncountable message board posts to kill a cat? nobody every shows no concern for the senseless killings of schrodinger's cat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

It's such a small yet completely important thing.... I hate the font they've used for the text in this game.

[Jaesun]

It's such a small yet completely important thing.... I hate the font they've used for the text in this game.

 

You know, they are quite responsive to feedback on the game on their forums. If it bothers you that much.

[Tigranes]

Annie Carlson, Brian Mitsoda (Doublebear) and Gareth Fouche have provided feedback on the upcoming AOD combat demo.

 

I think the thing that really makes me look forward to AOD's combat (and I otherwise wouldn't, because I always prefer squad combat and tend to see one-man TB combat as pretty dull) is the way in which you can really differentiate playing styles within standard categories (like 'fighter') and really see that translate into playing experiences... or, so it is said. The entire system seems to be built with that in mind, that playing a shield basher or net thrower or sneaky bowman or whatnot is all possible and differentiated with real consequences to how you fight and how well you fight.

 

Feel free to moan about the graphics again, but it looks good enough for me, technically speaking. Art direction is nothing to write home about, but (this might be completely wrong) nobody on the team strikes me as particularly artistically oriented, so it's hard to expect anything else.

[Jaesun]

Feel free to moan about the graphics again, but it looks good enough for me, technically speaking. Art direction is nothing to write home about, but (this might be completely wrong) nobody on the team strikes me as particularly artistically oriented, so it's hard to expect anything else.

 

Have you see the portraits for the game? I have not seen such excellent artwork since BIS games.

[Gromnir]

"Feel free to moan about the graphics again, but it looks good enough for me, technically speaking. Art direction is nothing to write home about, but (this might be completely wrong) nobody on the team strikes me as particularly artistically oriented, so it's hard to expect anything else. "

 

fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer?

 

am not seeing why folks is cutting aod a break. if bioware were releasing similar screenies and making exact same claims, you folks would be slaughtering 'em... but 'cause it is an indie project spawned by codex it is Totally Awesome.

 

*snort*

 

am gonna wait til we sees more than bad writing and some uninspired and outdated graphics before we get excited... 'cause otherwise all we got is same promises such as we has heard from a dozen different developers over the years... developers who had better resources. 1/2 the game with 2x the pretension? HA! not impressed... yet.

 

maybe is the indie kewl factor, or maybe is codexian predisposition to believe vinnie, but so far the enthusiasm in this thread is hardly proportional to the released material we seen so far.

 

on the positive side, is a relative small and homogenized group posting at iron tower forums... makes easier for developers to consider fan feedback. is one o' the few advantages o' being relative nobodies... ain't no flood o' diverse and conflicting requests with which to contend. have seen some developers make the mistake o' trying to honest cater to the fans... end up with mediocrity. make a game that satisfies everybody will necessarily be incapable o' genuinely impressing anybody.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

Me not expecting much doesn't mean I'm giving them a 'free pass', though. Is there some level of expectation we're meant to have for all commercial projects, or for indie projects, that I am 'cutting a break' from? Hrm.....

[Gromnir]

"Is there some level of expectation we're meant to have for all commercial projects, or for indie projects, that I am 'cutting a break' from?"

 

if such a standard does exist, it should be same for all developers... and we ain't seeing that. "moan" 'bout the art?

 

*chuckle*

 

"good enough" clear is different for aod than it is for other games... am not sure why. am even more concerned that people not seem to realize that they is applying a different standard.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

Meh, I feel as though I can pretty honestly state the graphics don't bother me.

 

Though appropriately, I'm also not looking forward to Age of Decadence.

[Gromnir]

saying that the graphics not bother you is not the same thing as Gromnir is talking 'bout. personally, graphics is one o' the less important factors for Gromnir, but that not change fact that we can see that aod graphics... suck. if bis or bio made a game and graphics looked like aod's, there would be a considerable 'mount o' criticism directed their way. likewise, we has seen bio, bis and troika promise similar stuff to what iron tower promises... so why the optimism for iron tower and the caution for bio, bis and troika? vinnie's lack of experience makes him more believable? 'course we gotta admit that some small segment o' fans genuine believe anything developers says during development, and even defend those developers post release when they fails to deliver on promises. am suspecting it gots something to do with emotional investment, but that is just a guess.

 

Gromnir has noted previous that real innovation is gonna probable come from small/new indie developer with a gambler mentality. what is the motivation for an established developer to break formula when the formula would appear to be so successful. is folks like iron tower, folks who cannot compete with big developers in terms o' production values, who is gonna have to be innovative to set selves apart. nevertheless, what has iron tower done to set selves apart so far? posted fugly screenies, revealed some amateurish writing, and made promises. be as enthusiastic or optimistic as you wish to be, but be honest 'bout it at least.

 

btw, obsidian is an indie developer... and so was bio up til recent. am not sure if people is using the term correct.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

MAybe its just a difference in expectation?

[alanschu]

I won't dispute that if BioWare released a game with AOD's graphics there'd be an uproar. I just won't take part in it.

 

 

And I think CrashGirl make's an astute point. Vinnie has no precedent set, plus there's the fact that people "know" him through the internet. So it's like a friend of yours working on something and you want it to do well.

 

Expectation is an important thing too. People expect more from the large gaming studios, as they'll have more resources at their disposal. Come to think of it, it's kind of natural. You have two guys at a charity about to donate money. One is a billionaire, the other is unemployed. Who do you expect is going to be able to contribute more. Do you hold the unemployed man by the same standards as the billionaire?

[Gromnir]

MAybe its just a difference in expectation?

 

 

that was Gromnir's point.

 

redux:

 

"fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer?"

 

level o' expectation not change the quality or lack o' quality o' a game. nevertheless, 'cause vinnie gots no resume he gets a pass on graphics and writing and what else? for the typical commercial product, if some newb wants to break into an established market, he gotta do better or cheaper. is aod gonna be cheaper? if not... *shrug*. So why is games different? why is aod different? why does reduced expectations result in paradox o' higher anticipation? wouldn't make sense if we were talking 'bout toaster ovens or cars, but somehow games is different?

 

fugly is fugly no matter if is iron tower or obsidian. hackneyed writing is no more or less hackneyed 'cause avellone did as 'posed to vinnie. am fully recognizing that there is a differing level o' expectation, but we ain't talking 'bout watching your son play tee-ball... or whatever is the euro-equivalent. this ain't the special olympics neither. expectation shouldn't make no difference when deciding good v. bad of a commercial product. wanna give vinnie a special olympics medal for his efforts? fine, but don't say "good" 'less it is.

 

"Do you hold the unemployed man by the same standards as the billionaire?"

 

yes. is that a trick question?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 14, 2009 by Gromnir

[alanschu]

yes. is that a trick question?

 

Good for you. No wonder you don't understand. I doubt you will.

[Slowtrain]

"Do you hold the unemployed man by the same standards as the billionaire?"

 

yes. is that a trick question?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Seriously? In terms of the amount of money that might be able to donate/contribute?

[Gromnir]

if Gromnir is the charity, depending on money, we would rather have 1 billionaire donate a million bucks than 100 paupers donate $10 apiece. the $10 may be more Meaningful from perspective of getting into heaven, but ask anybody who runs a charity if they want 100 paupers with $10 or 1 billionaire with 1 million. this is not a touchy-feely issue, and if alan wants to create ridiculous analogies that ain't analogous, that is fine... but we not gotta buy into the mularkey. aod is a commercial product. am not caring if the guy who built our toaster oven is a billionaire or unemployed... am only concerned 'bout how it works. argue that the unemployed guy's toaster oven is "better" simply 'cause it were crafted by somebody from more distressed background or limited means?

 

find out tomorrow that you got a serious and potential fatal disease. does you go to some unemployed doctor to give him a chance... give him a break? or does you find the best damned doctor you can afford, regardless of race, color, creed, national origin etc. ? you wanna compare value of services and goods? gots nothing whatsoever to do with paupers and billionaires donating cash.

 

you wanna stand at finish line and give vinnie a big hug for running a good race? great. that is what they does at special olympics, and it is a genuinely inspiring thing to watch. nevertheless, you tell us that Bill Stewart, the 15 year old with down syndrome who ran 100m in 25 seconds is a great runner and we will call you a liar.

 

try not to confuse yourselves with nonsense morality issues that got no place in this discussion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

I think we took different meanings from Alan's question.

 

For my part, if I was trying to raise money for something and some unemployed guy gave $10 and some billionaire gave $10,000, I wouldn't curse or belittle the unemployed guy for not giving $10,000.

 

Sure from a strictly economic point of view the $10,000 is more useful and in that sense absolute, but the expectaction of what they can potentially give is relative.

[alanschu]

if Gromnir is the charity, depending on money, we would rather have 1 billionaire donate a million bucks than 100 paupers donate $10 apiece. the $10 may be more Meaningful from perspective of getting into heaven, but ask anybody who runs a charity if they want 100 paupers with $10 or 1 billionaire with 1 million. this is not a touchy-feely issue, and if alan wants to create ridiculous analogies that ain't analogous, that is fine... but we not gotta buy into the mularkey. aod is a commercial product. am not caring if the guy who built our toaster oven is a billionaire or unemployed... am only concerned 'bout how it works. argue that the unemployed guy's toaster oven is "better" simply 'cause it were crafted by somebody from more distressed background or limited means?

 

So what you're saying is that if the Billionaire didn't pony up the money, and say, matched what the paupers donated, you'd be disappointed in the billionaire because you were, say, expecting a lot more from him?

 

Or how about, if the pauper contributed more than the billionaire, perhaps there'd be some appreciation for the pauper, in addition to some cynicism for the billionaire.

 

 

It's not that AoD is "better." It's that people's expectations are lower so it won't be as hard to meet them. They think they are going to get a game that they enjoy and given the source of development, aren't as critical for other parts because as you say, it's an amateur work. You've been describing the very reasons why people are less critical in your very own posts, but somehow failed to actually comprehend it. Perhaps your posting style has obfuscated your points even to yourself.

 

 

If BioWare [billionaire] makes a game on the level of AoD [made by the pauper], and essentially contributes just as much as the pauper, then yes, people will take notice, and as you have acknowledged already, criticize BioWare for it. If Iron Tower Studios were to make a game with the graphical fidelity of Mass Effect, from it's indie [pauper] roots, people would be absolutely floored with it. Heck, if Iron Tower Studios were to actually have made Mass Effect, instead of BioWare, I have no doubt that the game would be more universally heralded as a fantastic game.

 

 

CrashGirl gets it. But as I said straight up in my original post...you don't seem to understand. Which is a bit mind boggling, because you seem to give the reasons for why people would treat Iron Tower differently, only to later ask why people treat Iron Tower differently.

Edited August 14, 2009 by alanschu

[Gromnir]

"So what you're saying is that if the Billionaire didn't pony up the money, and say, matched what the paupers donated, you'd be disappointed in the billionaire because you were, say, expecting a lot more from him?"

 

talk 'bout unclear on the concept.

 

1) aod is NOT a charity. is not 'bout intentions or good will or warm fuzzy. aod is a Luxury Item... is a game being made for commercial reasons and being sold to people with disposable income. analogize to charity? HA! fine. vinnie and aod is analogous to a charity case... That at least makes some sense as to why vinnie and aod gets some sorta special break.

 

2) $10 dollars spends same, no matter where you get it from.

 

Gromnir is on the board of a non-profit organization that provides free and low cost medical and counseling services. a $10 donation from Bill Gates goes just as far in paying our electric bill as does $10 from the guy standing on street corner waving his "Open House" banner in +100 degree heat. the usefulness o' the donation not change one bit relative to the donor's means. expectations got Zero to do with the end value o' the donation.

 

it was a stoopid analogy... honest. am glad you is sticking with it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 14, 2009 by Gromnir

[Purkake]

The trick is to not expect either of them to pay anything and be glad for whatever either of them donates.

[Slowtrain]

Honestlty, I'm not really sure what Grommy is talking about.

 

But simply put, speaking only for myself, if one game developer has fewer resources than another, I'm more thn willing to cut them a break on some aspects of the game.

 

I still expect it to be a game that I enjoy, but if the presentation isn't up to the standards of a major studio that's fine. I don't expect it to be; I would still buy it if its good.

[Purkake]

Honestlty, I'm not really sure what Grommy is talking about.

 

But simply put, speaking only for myself, if one game developer has fewer resources than another, I'm more thn willing to cut them a break on some aspects of the game.

 

I still expect it to be a game that I enjoy, but if the presentation isn't up to the standards of a major studio that's fine. I don't expect it to be; I would still buy it if its good.

 

Why would someone hold World of Goo up to the same standards as Half-Life 2? That's ridiculous, you expect both of them to work and be fun, but that's about it.

[skuld1]

Honestlty, I'm not really sure what Grommy is talking about.

 

But simply put, speaking only for myself, if one game developer has fewer resources than another, I'm more thn willing to cut them a break on some aspects of the game.

 

I still expect it to be a game that I enjoy, but if the presentation isn't up to the standards of a major studio that's fine. I don't expect it to be; I would still buy it if its good.

 

Would the game still be 'good' if I edited out the Iron Tower splash screen and dropped a Bioware or Bethesda one in there?