Quantic Dream officially announces Heavy Rain

[Morgoth]

but a good game like Indigo Prophecy should have premium content available.  that is one way to keep it interesting...new content in between titles.

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Actually, IP was always meant as an episodic game, always releasing a new portion of story periodically, like a TV series...though this concept didn't appeal to the publishers back in 2002 (!) when Dave Cage first talked about this concept, so it became a "normal" package. Now that episodic content becomes more popular, maybe QD will rethink about using that concept for Heavy Rain again.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Morgoth

[Diogo Ribeiro]

only problem is that if you change somthing at the very beginning you essencially DOUBLE the size of the creative work.

 

Yes, those poor designers and all that creative work they have to do. They should probably do something more related to their skills and to what they're being paid for, like fetching coffee and navel gazing.

 

AND it's possible you DOUBLE the amount of information required for the maps because there have to be two versions. One you did X at the beginning so AB and C are set up and the other you did Y at the beginning and you DE and F are set up instead...

 

This only has to happen if the developers want it to happen. You don't have to double the amount of physical spaces when entity reactions and interactions can be handled by scripts which track down player choices. You don't have to create entirely different maps to accomodate player decisions. Or, let's use the force of example.

 

Go play Deus Ex. Start the first level, Liberty Island. Make a save at the beginning, then go around killing all NSF troops, don't promise to use non-violent means to capture the NSF leader in charge of the operation to Harley Filben, don't rescue Gunther Hermann, kill the NSF leader.

 

Reload, then do the opposite. Use non-lethal ways to incapacitate NSF troops or simply don't even touch any, promise Filben to take it easy on the NSF leader, rescue Gunther, and don't kill the NSF leader.

 

Reload, and just do what you want regarding any of the above options.

 

Exactly what kind of information required two or more different maps? None whatsoever.

 

Or, go play Baldur's Gate 2. Start the game and play up to the point where you have to choose wheter to affiliate yourself with the Shadow Thieves or with the Vampire Guild. Make a save. Play for either side then see through all of their quests. Reload, then play for the opposing side and see through all of those quests.

 

Exactly what kind of information required two or more different maps? None whatsoever.

 

And these aren't even the only games where this happens. Far from it. The use of scripts as means to track player actions and present different entity reactions based on them have been around for a long time now, and that's pretty much what's being used in these cases.

 

Deus Ex requiring oh so many new and different maps to handle player actions made throughout the game is fallacious, especially considering how many player choices the game reacts to while providing the same amount of maps and reactions to those choices in said maps. Even *if* additional maps were required (and at this point we would be willingly rejecting the possibility of having all of the game's maps remain the same but to give the players different sets of objectives based on their affiliation), removing filler levels from the game - like the entire Ocean Lab sequence, where everyone already knew where the story was going but had to suffer through another set of empty hallways with pointless and arbitrary encounters with mutated stuff and shallow objectives - would work just fine.

 

Also you might end up having to double the amount of maps simply because that'd be more acceptable than reusing the same map again. (you know... reviewers always saying "the environments are repetitive."?)

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Repetitive art direction and the faux necessity to create different maps based on each and every player decision are two different things and not necessarily related.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Role-Player

[Darque]

Why wouldn't it be here to stay?

 

If whatever they're doing now sells, why bother investing more into design when the end result doesn't guarantee extra sales?

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Because new is better.

 

Ok, I can't back that one up. :ph34r:

[Hell Kitty]

Alternate storylines don't have to mean double the work. Take Front Mission 3 for example - two whole storylines that show the different sides from very different point of view, but probably 80 percent or more of the maps and enemies you encounter are identical in either scenario.

 

Of course, reusing assets doesn't work for all types of game. You could work for different factions in DX:IW, but it was rather pointless because it was all the same. The differences in FM3 are all how the characters interact, with whether or not the mission took place on different maps being mostly irrelevant.

 

If things had gone as originally planned, Deus Ex might have allowed you to play through a different scenario, even as a female JC; Vampire Bloodlines might have featured a multiplayer mode; Half-Life 2's scripted sequences might have been handled by AI; and Thief: The Dark Project might have seen you battle Arthur and his knights in a twisted version of Camelot.

 

Plans can change for any number of reasons, not just because developers focus on "trivial things" instead of things that "really matter". As much as people might like to dream of how awesome things might have been if and old plan had worked out, the truth is there is no way to realistically judge the road not travelled.

[Darque]

That's an excellent point

 

And Front Mission 3 is a great example

[Hassat Hunter]

If things had gone as originally planned, Deus Ex might have allowed you to play through a different scenario, even as a female JC

 

There has been ALOT of cutting in DX. Despite that it has been great;

 

UNATCO storyline

Female JC

Moon base

White House mission

etc. etc. etc.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Plans can change for any number of reasons, not just because developers focus on "trivial things" instead of things that "really matter".

 

Obviously, but then again not only was my point not aimed at developers in general, it was also focused on a portion of development rather than an entire cycle.

 

Also, we weren't talking about some junior developer was being whiplashed by a publisher constantly changing deadlines and plans, we were talking about a game developer who wheter justified or not, has enough credit to be given enough room to develop the game he wanted. And he had more than enough room to create the game that fit his vision.

 

the truth is there is no way to realistically judge the road not travelled.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That sounds like excellent fortune cookie material, but not very relevant to what was being discussed.

[Hell Kitty]

That sounds like excellent fortune cookie material, but not very relevant to what was being discussed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course it's relevant. You claim Spector had "more than enough room to create the game that fit his vision". What do you mean by this and why do you think it? What exactly was Spector's vision? The Deus Ex we know with the alternate storyline Hassat Hunter would like to see? Troubleshooter? Junction Point?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Of course it's relevant.

 

Your posts do not become relevant simply because you want them to. Telling me "there is no way to realistically judge the road not travelled" is irrelevant for the very simple reason I wasn't judging the so called "road not travelled", but rather suggesting that he could have very well went through that road - or went with something very close to it - if he wanted to.

 

You claim Spector had "more than enough room to create the game that fit his vision". What do you mean by this and why do you think it?

 

I'm not going to repeat myself, given I've made it quite clear in my previous post.

 

What exactly was Spector's vision? The Deus Ex we know with the alternate storyline Hassat Hunter would like to see? Troubleshooter? Junction Point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Any and all unfulfilled plans Spector had for the game very well come to mind.

[Hell Kitty]

he could have very well went through that road - or went with something very close to it - if he wanted to.

 

But he didn't, which makes that road... *drum roll* ...the road not travelled. There are an infinite number of roads - one of them led to the release of Deus Ex as we know it. The other roads include all manner of shoulda/coulda/woulda - stuff the Spector wanted to do but didn't, stuff he wanted to do but couldn't, stuff he wanted to do then changed his mind. All the roads that might have been are irrelevant. You can praise a dev for not going down a road you think is bad, or criticise them for not going down a road you think is good, but it's all worthless criticism.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself, given I've made it quite clear in my previous post.

 

Your previous post mentions nothing of Spectors vision, only your own idea of what might have been. Nor have you given any reason why Spector was able to fufill that vision, whatever it might be. If your belief in his ability to create his vision was true, then Deus Ex and Ion Storm Austin would never have existed, instead we'd likely have a game called Troubleshooter from Origin.

 

Game design is about compromise, not fufilling a single vision of one man.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Diogo Ribeiro]

But he didn't, which makes that road... *drum roll* ...the road not travelled. And hey, here's some more obvious stuff thrown in as a last ditch effort.

 

Stop grasping at straws. For the last time, I wasn't judging the road not travelled.

 

Your previous post mentions nothing of Spectors vision

 

In your previous post you asked me why did I thought he had enough room to exercise his creative vision which, had you paid attention, had been retroactively replied.

 

Game design is about compromise, not fufilling a single vision of one man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sure Spector wasn't working alone but as the game's Producer and Project Director, he called pretty much all the shots.

[Hassat Hunter]

Alot of content has been cut for different reasons. The moonstuff I don't know, the UNATCO stuff because it would branch the game and not fit in the conspiracy theme of the game and the White House because the US was not all too happy to have the entire building in the game made of actual bluemappings. Terrorist-helping stuff and such.

 

There IS a version of Spector's (original) vision hanging out on the net on one of the fansites, I'll see if I can dig it up...

[alanschu]

the White House because the US was not all too happy to have the entire building in the game made of actual bluemappings. Terrorist-helping stuff and such.

 

Is it really that big of an issue, when a Google for "White House Floor Plan" gave me this?

 

The do offer tours through the building.

Edited May 17, 2006 by alanschu

[Hassat Hunter]

That was the reason given. Cannot say if they told the thruth though...

[alanschu]

Meh. I call marketing gimick!

[Hassat Hunter]

Original DX-idea/plan

[Hell Kitty]

Stop grasping at straws. For the last time, I wasn't judging the road not travelled.

 

Yes, you are, because a version of DX with an alternate storyline is the road not travelled. The plan to include an alternate storyline was abandoned, it was a road they didn't travel down.

 

In your previous post you asked me why did I thought he had enough room to exercise his creative vision which, had you paid attention, had been retroactively replied.

 

All you did was mention that DX allows you to complete your objectives in very different ways, which has nothing to do with an alternate storyline that sees JC stay on with UNATCO.

 

Was an alternate storyline even Spector's idea? Was it Harvey Smith's? Or Sheldon Pacotti's? Was it something they all wanted to see and were really disappointed it wasn't going to happen? Was it something they really weren't fussed over and could care less about once it was gone? As Hassat Hunter points out the alternate storyline was abandoned because it didn't fit with the game. Who thought this? Spector? The team as a whole?

 

As much as you may like to deny it, any sort of speculation on what might have been is judging the "road not travelled".

 

I'm sure Spector wasn't working alone but as the game's Producer and Project Director, he called pretty much all the shots.

 

Is Bloodlines lacking a multiplayer mode because Leonard Boyarsky failed to meet his vision? Was a multiplayer mode even his idea? Did Half-Life 2 use scripts instead of AI because Gabe Newell failed to meet his vision? Geez, if Gabe can't do it, that doesn't leave much hope for anyone else...

Edited May 18, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Diogo Ribeiro]

[Hell Kitty]

"All it takes is to stop focusing on trivial things which don't have an effect on gameplay and move on up to what he really wanted to do." sure sounds like a judgement to me. You've judged certain aspects of the game as trivial and seem to lay the blame on Spector for focusing on those aspects instead of his vision of an alternate story, which may or may not be his vision at all.

 

Being the lead isn't any sort of guarantee that you vision is reached. As I said in my first post, plans change for any number of reasons, and being the head of a project doesn't mean you can set a plan in stone without wanting it or needing it to change for any number of reasons. Being the lead doesn't mean you have total control everything that happens.

 

And as for the comment about scripts in HL2, when the first video of that game was shown, we were told that things like characters reacting to the environment (enemies kicking in doors you've blocked, the interaction of your allies based on things you do) would all be unscripted. In the end, they were as scripted as HL.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"All it takes is to stop focusing on trivial things which don't have an effect on gameplay and move on up to what he really wanted to do." sure sounds like a judgement to me. You've judged certain aspects of the game as trivial and seem to lay the blame on Spector for focusing on those aspects instead of his vision of an alternate story, which may or may not be his vision at all.

 

Of course it sounds like a judgement, but here's the difference...

I judged the road he took - and not the road not taken, like you had said.

Are we clear on this?

 

Being the lead isn't any sort of guarantee that you vision is reached. As I said in my first post, plans change for any number of reasons, and being the head of a project doesn't mean you can set a plan in stone without wanting it or needing it to change for any number of reasons. Being the lead doesn't mean you have total control everything that happens.

 

Being the lead means that you have a large amount of control over everything that is happening with the game's development insofar as your team is concerned; but add to it that he was a reputed developer in the eyes of the gaming industry working on a title that drawed much gamer anticipation and media coverage, and that he worked on previously critically acclaimed videogames - and you almost certainly get someone who has more than the average control over a game development cycle. Not absolute control, but large enough.

 

And as for the comment about scripts in HL2, when the first video of that game was shown, we were told that things like characters reacting to the environment (enemies kicking in doors you've blocked, the interaction of your allies based on things you do) would all be unscripted. In the end, they were as scripted as HL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, I remember watching those videos as well; and I understood where you were coming from. However, when we're talking about AI that supposedly decides for itself, we are - in most cases, if not all - still talking about scripted situations, because any AI 'deciding' what to do just has a large variety of predetermined scripts in its database and decides to use one based on given circumstances, as opposed to just having one single script kick in (which seems like what most people refer to scripted).

Edited May 18, 2006 by Role-Player

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And with that, it's time to hit the road.

[StillLife]

The lip or the realism? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Her face seemed too... strange. Mostly the lips, but the eyes didn't seem quite right either for some reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Her brow was in a fixed position almost the whole thing. Humans--and all primates for that matter--manipulate our brows to communicate through facial expression, especially when conveying emotions. The lip-syncing was off in a lot of spots too. You can't really speak clearly, mouth agape while keeping your top teeth exposed for long periods of time. Especially when sounding out certain letters like P.

 

The fact it's kinda eerie is a testament to how lifelike it almost is though. It's on the verge of almost fooling the human eye, yet still noticably unatural which makes it disturbing. We'll probably have to go through a period of that as games and CGI movies attempt to become more photo-realistic with characters.

 

The background stuff and some of the lighting looked extremely well-done though.

[Hassat Hunter]

Being the lead means that you have a large amount of control over everything that is happening with the game's development insofar as your team is concerned; but add to it that he was a reputed developer in the eyes of the gaming industry working on a title that drawed much gamer anticipation and media coverage, and that he worked on previously critically acclaimed videogames - and you almost certainly get someone who has more than the average control over a game development cycle. Not absolute control, but large enough.

 

Hmmm, besides John Romero taking away large chunks of Ion Storms finance (for no gain in the end because Daikatana sucked) and the fact they were in problems if no financial good game came onto the market? Also he might be a reputed dev. he was still on a new company; and in the shadow of Romero. We all know what crap Molyneux produced after he left Bull Frog as example...

 

And if Spector's vision could be reached; as you say WHY the amount of cutting in missions (moon, texas, mountain, UNATCO) and the remark he rather had 75% of the gamespace with more character immersion? If he was so powerfull in the dev. why didn't he just made it 75% and improved the characters? As you might have read in the plan they actually even made most NPC's and the way they responded on you that made the game the classic it became on the long way; it was not planned...

And ofcourse we all saw what happened with IW, when they HAVE the time and finance...

[alanschu]

John Romero taking away money from the project??

[Musopticon?]

Original DX-idea/plan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was a great read.

 

Damn, I hope they get the graphics mod(Tenebrae Deus Ex :D) finished soon. I'm itching for another go.